D&D 5E Death Saves and Resting - A rules tweak to slay elephants and increase difficulty through all levels

[OB1]

Without taking a stand on your more general point, I think your example may not be apt. Arcane Ward is not temporary hit points, in the sense of "temporary hit points" being the term specifically defined in the PHB. https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/15/abjurers-arcane-ward-and-temporary-hp/ . That said, I don't know whether [MENTION=6796241]OB1[/MENTION] intended the restriction to apply to Arcane Ward also, or not. It would be interesting to know.

Hadn't thought about arcane ward originally but give this I would say you can still use arcane ward with a Mortal Wound since it is external to the PC and isn't considered THP by rule.


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[TallIan]

And the abjuration wizard doesn't lose her ability to cast spells. And everyone loses the chance to benefit from Inspiring Leader. And ultimately, if you have a regular source of THPs compared to someone else in the same class as you, you should have an advantage against needing to make the death save that could lead to a mortal wound in the first place.

But those other classes retain some other advantage. A fighter's fighting style applies both before AND after his first failed death save.

Defensive fighting style is probably the easiest to compare to abjuration wizard as both are defensive in nature. [-]A defensive fighter takes fewer hits - giving him an advantage against needing to make a death save until he fails one, then continues to have an advantage against needing to make a second death save.

The abjurer soaks more HPs through his THPs - giving him an advantage against needing to make a death save until he fails one, then loses his advantage against needing to make a second death save, despite his investment in character building resources.

A similar argument applies to any form of regular THPs, wherever they come from, you're not benefiting from something else. That something else doesn't stop because of a failed death save.[/-]

EDIT: changed my example due to the original one having a rules error See my later post

 

[Yaarel]

1. When you drop to 0 HP, make a death saving throw. DC is 10 or the number of hit points below 0 the attack took you, whichever is higher.

Maybe clarify further.

1. When you drop to 0 hit points, immediately as a reaction, make a death saving throw. Failure signifies the lethal blow has inflicted a disabling injury.

 

[Yaarel]

Sometimes it is helpful to determine the location of the injury randomly.

Roll d20

[FONT=Courier New]
[B]d20[/B]     [B]Bodypart[/B]                                [B]Reallife[/B]

        [B]Head[/B]                                    20%
 1      • Brain (Concussion)                                   
 2      • Face                                                     
 3      • Crown                                                    
 4      • Neck                                                     

        [B]Chest[/B]                                   15%
 5      • Breasts                                                
 6      • Sternum                                                
 7      • Back                                                     

        [B]Abdomen[/B]                                 10%
 8      • Belly                                             
 9      • Lower Back/Groin

        [B]Arms[/B]                                    30%
10      • Right Hand                                             
11      • Right Shoulder                       
12      • Right Arm/Elbow/Wrist               
13      • Left Hand                                               
14      • Left Shoulder                  
15      • Left Arm/Elbow/Wrist                 

        [B]Legs[/B]                                    25%
16      • Right Knee                                             
17      • Right Leg/Hip/Ankle/Foot              
18      • Left Knee                                               
19      • Left Leg/Hip/Ankle/Foot                 
20      • Buttocks       
[/FONT]

(The above locations model reallife medical statistics for injuries during combat and work accidents.)

When reaching 0 hit points, if failing the death save and the location of the injury is to a limb, then the limb becomes unusable (usually a broken bone) instead of becoming unconscious.

 

[Yaarel]

I am exploring how the number of failed death saves determines how serious the wound is, and how long it takes to completely recover. Not sure how to make it work, but something like the following.

1 failure: 2d6 days to recover.
2 failures: 2d6 weeks to recover.
3 failures: 2d6 months to recover.
4 failures: permanent disability.
5 failures: death (usually from blood loss and system shock).

 

[Harzel]

Edit: Now using the term Mortal Wound to replace Failed Death Save.

In the thread on whether 5E is viable at high levels, I remarked on a set of rule changes I was considering as my party moves from Tier III into Tier IV and will also include whenever I start my next campaign. As I'd like further comment, I thought to bring it into its own thread.

The goal here is to increase flexibility between day long missions and multi-day or even multi-week missions, without requiring the rules to arbitrarily change based on the mission type. The two primary ways I accomplish this is making dropping to 0 HP much more dangerous, Failed Death Saves more permanent (already in my campaign they reset on short rests rather than instantly when healed) and decoupling Healing and Ability Regeneration into different types of rests.

I welcome any thoughts and insights to strengthen and tighten this tweak.

Death Saves

1. When you drop to 0 HP, make a death saving throw. DC is 10 or the number of hit points below 0 the attack took you, whichever is higher.

2. When you fail a death save, you also gain a level of exhaustion and a Mortal Wound. You can never have fewer failed death save marks than you have Mortal Wounds.

3. Mortal Wound's are removable by extended rest or one at a time by Greater Restoration or similar magic. On a Long Rest, you can make a DC 20 Heal check to remove a Mortal Wound, failing this check also prevents you from removing a level of exhaustion during the rest. Failure by 5 or more increases your exhaustion level by 1.

4. When you have a Mortal Wound, you cannot gain Temporary Hit Points from any source.

Resting

Breather - 5 Minute Rest where you can spend Hit Die (also available during any other type of rest)

Short Rest - 1 hour rest uninterrupted by combat resets short rest class abilities.

Long Rest - 8 hour rest uninterrupted by combat resets long rest class abilities and removes 1 level of exhaustion. You also regain 1 spent Hit Die if you are level 1-10 or 2 spent Hit Die if you are level 11-20. You do not regain Hit Die from the rest if you have a level of exhaustion or a Mortal Wound prior to starting the rest.

Extended Rest - 7 day rest uninterrupted by combat resets HP to Max, returns all hit die, and removes all exhaustion levels and Mortal Wounds.


Edit - Special thanks to @Helldritch for feedback from the original thread

I'm a little confused about the relationship between Failed Death Saves and Mortal Wounds. Are they exactly the same? If so, why have a new name for them? If not, when do Failed Death Saves reset? In either case, I'm not sure what "You can never have fewer failed death save marks than you have Mortal Wounds." is intended to convey. Sorry if I'm being dense.

 

[TallIan]

Both these quotes came through after my last post.

Without taking a stand on your more general point, I think your example may not be apt. Arcane Ward is not temporary hit points, in the sense of "temporary hit points" being the term specifically defined in the PHB. https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/15/abjurers-arcane-ward-and-temporary-hp/ . That said, I don't know whether @OB1 intended the restriction to apply to Arcane Ward also, or not. It would be interesting to know.

This prompted me to go and reread arcane ward and it isn't THP like I've been playing it so far. Ooops, every day's a school day I guess.

Hadn't thought about arcane ward originally but give this I would say you can still use arcane ward with a Mortal Wound since it is external to the PC and isn't considered THP by rule.

Ok, my example was bad but my point is still valid. Lets compare a ranger to a warlock as both get the relevant class ability at 2nd level.

A ranger with defensive fighting style takes fewer hits - giving him an advantage against needing to make a death save until he fails one, then continues to have an advantage against needing to make a second death save. His fighting style is still active.

A warlock takes fiendish vigor and soaks more HPs through his THPs (roughly the first hit of each combat as he can always start a fight with ~5THP) - giving him an advantage against needing to make a death save until he fails one, then loses his advantage against needing to make a second death save, despite his investment in character building resources. A blade pact warlock, gets shafted twice in this example as he loses out on THP's mid fight as well from Dark One's own blessing.

A similar argument applies to any form of regular THPs, wherever they come from, you're not benefiting from something else (different spell/feat,etc). That "something else" doesn't stop because of a failed death save.

 

[OB1]

Maybe clarify further.

1. When you drop to 0 hit points, immediately as a reaction, make a death saving throw. Failure signifies the lethal blow has inflicted a disabling injury.

I like this and will make the change.

I'm a little confused about the relationship between Failed Death Saves and Mortal Wounds. Are they exactly the same? If so, why have a new name for them? If not, when do Failed Death Saves reset? In either case, I'm not sure what "You can never have fewer failed death save marks than you have Mortal Wounds." is intended to convey. Sorry if I'm being dense.

Somewhat the same. Failed Death Saves cause Mortal Wounds. And since Failed Death Save marks go away once you are stabilized, I wanted a way to show that the Mortal Wounds counted against you until dying. Probably would have been clearer to say, if you have 3 mortal wounds, you die. I'll make the change.

Ok, my example was bad but my point is still valid. Lets compare a ranger to a warlock as both get the relevant class ability at 2nd level.

A ranger with defensive fighting style takes fewer hits - giving him an advantage against needing to make a death save until he fails one, then continues to have an advantage against needing to make a second death save. His fighting style is still active.

A warlock takes fiendish vigor and soaks more HPs through his THPs (roughly the first hit of each combat as he can always start a fight with ~5THP) - giving him an advantage against needing to make a death save until he fails one, then loses his advantage against needing to make a second death save, despite his investment in character building resources. A blade pact warlock, gets shafted twice in this example as he loses out on THP's mid fight as well from Dark One's own blessing.

A similar argument applies to any form of regular THPs, wherever they come from, you're not benefiting from something else (different spell/feat,etc). That "something else" doesn't stop because of a failed death save.

I understand that this will effect some builds more than others, but I disagree that I should remove the rule because of it. The warlock above simply needs to be more careful about dropping to 0 HP, in the same way that a wizard, due to lower HP overall, has to be more careful than the fighter if they wish to stay in the fight. And the THPs are still a benefit to the Warlock over other builds in the same class, because they are more unlikely overall to suffer all of the other negative effects of taking a Mortal Wound than the other builds.

 

[TallIan]

Maybe clarify further.

1. When you drop to 0 hit points, immediately as a reaction, make a death saving throw. Failure signifies the lethal blow has inflicted a disabling injury.

Why the use of reaction? Any other save doesn't use your reaction and what happens if you've already used your reaction that round?

I understand that this will effect some builds more than others, but I disagree that I should remove the rule because of it. The warlock above simply needs to be more careful about dropping to 0 HP, in the same way that a wizard, due to lower HP overall, has to be more careful than the fighter if they wish to stay in the fight. And the THPs are still a benefit to the Warlock over other builds in the same class, because they are more unlikely overall to suffer all of the other negative effects of taking a Mortal Wound than the other builds.

To rephrase tour last sentence;
And the THPs are still a benefit to the Warlock instead of other builds in the same class'sother, different because they are more unlikely overall to suffer all of the other negative effects of taking a Mortal Wound than the other builds.

The ranger in my example chose defensive fighting style so he could take less damage and continues to take less damage after the failed death save. A fey pact warlock can still use his charm ability and can do so every short rest even after a failed death save.

My point is youve given up something to get a regular source of THP's which your idea takes away. Yet the guy who took something else still gets what he took. What he took may be great for staying alive after a failed death save (like defensive fighting style)

 

[Tony Vargas]

Suggest then that you rename "cure wounds" in your game to "cure fatigue" or "cure stamina", as wounds very strongly implies physical injury.

Someone should have suggested that to EGG back in 79.

Seriously, though (not really), after his infamous hp treatise, you could have replaced Cure Light Wounds with 'Remove Fatigue,' Cure Serious with 'Restore Luck,' and simply nipped the 'Critical' out of 'Cure Critical Wounds.' With all the stuff he'd folded into hps at that point maybe six or either other similar spells, as well. Really bookkeeping-obsessed groups could even have mapped out the types of hp damage lost to each attack and tracked them separately...

As for the HD attrition, I'm back and forth on that option, and I definitely don't want to "force" having someone with healing magic on the team, especially since my PCs don't have a strong healer in the party.

Making the game less dependent upon having magic-using PCs is a tall order, in any case.

Yeah, I think while talking about elephants recently we sort of determined this problem needs a big enough hammer to fix that one risks shattering the rest of the game in the process.

At some point we just need to acknowledge that the risk of 'breaking' the game is moot. D&D isn't a pane of glass, it's a pile of sand.