Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire"

[jdavis]

Well the Faith, at least, has a centralized authority based in King's Landing as the High Septon. He seems to have some degree of power, though the lesser septons might not. We don't really know because the only towns other than KL that we've seen up close worship the Old Gods and the Drowned God.

I would argue that the presence of these three religions is what keeps the Faith from becoming as powerful as the Church in medieval Western Europe. The Church was the only game in town as far as religion goes, and therefore was able to grab more power. Perhaps if the North, the South and the Iron Islands were seperate states then each religion might become more powerful, but so long as they have to coexist in the same state that would seem unlikely.

The way I remember it was that the High Septon's (I can't remeber the name of the religion he represented, {the 7?}) sect was the "official" religion, the others were the "old religions". The groves in the north were for gods that few people cared about any more, the Drowned god was just on the Iron Islands and it's worship was frouwned apon by the "government", but it was too remote to atempt to squash. The red god (is that the right name?) is a religion from across the sea. I don't remember any other gods off the top of my head but I am sure I missed some. If I remember correctly the church of {the 7?} did activly try to get rid of all the other religions, they were the official religion, the rest were local religions or old religions.

 

[jdavis]

Originally posted by King_Stannis

It's not so much that the Red Witch is telling him he has to be king, he IS the King. As he told Davos, "want" has nothing to do with it. She is giving him the added incentive of being AA reborn, and that he has to fight The Other. But to do that, he needs the Iron Throne (or so he thinks).

Yea I don't think he actually wants to be king, which makes it odd that he is fighting so hard for it rather than supporting somebody who wants it and would be good at it. He is almost obsessed with his right to be king rather than any want to be king. His beilief in Melisandra's prophesies probably has put it into his mind that only he can be king and protect the kingdom" Sort of funny but by the end of the third book I think he is the only "King" left, there were four at one time.

 

[RyanL]

Yea I don't think he actually wants to be king, which makes it odd that he is fighting so hard for it rather than supporting somebody who wants it and would be good at it. He is almost obsessed with his right to be king rather than any want to be king. His beilief in Melisandra's prophesies probably has put it into his mind that only he can be king and protect the kingdom" Sort of funny but by the end of the third book I think he is the only "King" left, there were four at one time.

In light of this, do you think Stannis will step down when Dany comes to Westeros? What will happen if Melisandre realizes her mistake (assuming she is mistaken about Stannis) and throws her support elsewhere? Assuming the theories about Jon Snow are correct, how would Stannis react to that?

Honestly, I think I could see Stannis renouncing his claim and throwing his support behind someone else. Melisandre could be a fly in the ointment, though.

-Ryan

Addendum: As an aside, let me say how much I am enjoying this thread.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

In light of this, do you think Stannis will step down when Dany comes to Westeros?

All IIRC:

Haha. Didn't he lead part of the army that over threw her family?

No, he will be up for killing her.

What will happen if Melisandre realizes her mistake (assuming she is mistaken about Stannis) and throws her support elsewhere?

That is hard to say- we know so little about her and why she thinks Stannis is the one in the first place.

Assuming the theories about Jon Snow are correct, how would Stannis react to that?

"Off with his head!" It was the last legitimate king's law, after all, that all relatives of that family had to die.

Honestly, I think I could see Stannis renouncing his claim and throwing his support behind someone else.

Well, winter is coming over. So, I guess Hell could freeze over.

SD

 

[RyanL]

"Off with his head!" It was the last legitimate king's law, after all, that all relatives of that family had to die.

SD

Which brings up another thing that has nagged me about the series. What the heck happened to the whole Targaryen family? Surely there were many cousins, etc? Were they all slaughtered? We know that Maester Aemon was allowed to live.

-Ryan

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Which brings up another thing that has nagged me about the series. What the heck happened to the whole Targaryen family?

I think it is safe to assume most were slaughtered. Dany recounts the final stand of her cousin- as her and her brother escaped. She did not seem to note much hope of running into other family- believing it was just her and her brother.

Also- she notes multiple times how that family tended to marry their family. It might not have been that big of a family in the first place.

SD

 

[jdavis]

Assuming the theories about Jon Snow are correct, how would Stannis react to that?

I don't think Stannis would continue trying to talk Jon Snow into becoming the new Lord in the North, he would try to downplay it and keep Snow oath bound to the wall. As long as he is oath bound to the wall he is no threat to Stannis that way, now whether Melisandre would want him gone, well we really don't know what's up with her (she could just be trying to keep things stirred up, heck we have yet to learn if the god she worships is evil or not.).

Also- she notes multiple times how that family tended to marry their family. It might not have been that big of a family in the first place.

I do believe that Rhaegar's marrage to Elia of Dorne was a exception, they primarily wed within the family. The Martells of Dorne would consider Dany family. I thought there way a family history of the Targaryen family someplace, but I don't remember if it was a appendix or I saw it someplace else.

 

[King_Stannis]

What will happen if Melisandre realizes her mistake (assuming she is mistaken about Stannis) and throws her support elsewhere?

I'm surprised at the number of people who discount out of hand the fact that Stannis is AA reborn. We know so little of the prophecies, R'hollar, The Other, etc. that it's just possible Stannis is 'Da man. My view on this is "hold all bets". Martin can surprise people, can he not.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Re: Re: Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire"

I'd be interested to hear of any other characters I might have missed.

Brienne of Tarth is pretty paladiny, if that's a word.


As for "It is pretty easy draw a line on most characters on the book." Okay, why don't you start with Arya Stark and the Hound, Sandor Clegane? Simplistic moralistic charicatures like the majority of fantasy characters? I would argue not. How about "drawing a line" on Jaime Lannister? I'll even make it really simple. Tell me what alignment they'd each be in AD&D terms.

NRG

No questions asked in any campaign I have ever run Jamie is NE all the way. Halfway through the first book he tries to murder a 5 year old for seeing him having incestual sex with his sister.

In my opinion you never recover your alignment from a murderous act like that. Never.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Re: Re: Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire&quo

In my opinion you never recover your alignment from a murderous act like that. Never.

I really don't like the feeling of being on the same side of an issue as you DocM.

On a side issue(since this topic has seen enough hijacks, why not one more)-

If you could have any part of the aSoIaF world written out into a supplement, then what might it be?

I would like the maesters(spell?) and their organization written out. It seems like such a cool idea for a d&d organization- and I like the symbolism behind the more they learn.. the more chains they must wear.. representing a forced humility that comes with the knowledge.

SD