D&D (2024) December 1st UA Spell changes

[Maxperson]

So... why do you think the damage is listed as that? Do you think they compared the damage to AC?

Everything. It's just one piece of the puzzle, not a white room object like you want to make it. Neither damage, not hit points exist in isolation. This is proved by the fact that you can modify anything in the block and it doesn't shift the CR all the way to whatever you pick. If damage vs. hit points where the end all, be all you make it out to be, modifying damage in step 3 would shift CR 1 for every TWO steps. It would shift it for every step.

Yet despite your claim there is no math in the DMG... you certainly seem to know exactly how to use the system and what numbers go where.

I can drive a car, too. Can't build one. You can use the tools in the DMG, but you don't know how they were built. You don't have the math behind the tools.

Uh huh, because it is vitally important to clarify that it is a fact that theoritical abilities could exist.

No. It's a fact that other abilities do exist. They aren't theoretical. DMs all over the world come up with them, being creative and all.

Invisibility is only advantage for a single attack. It doesn't exist long enough to affect their damage output more than getting a successful stealth roll or any other reason for advantage. There is no math for this, in the terms of a formula, but the reasoning is obvious. Meanwhile, while the disadvantage to being attacked might matter, since invisibility almost always disappears when an attack is made, the defensive use only applies as long as the enemy is out of the fight, and again, usually doesn't last long enough. You keep screaming "Math!math!math!" but there is no "abilities over time" equation to write out.

Meanwhile. look at Constrict. It is an attack, so you deal damage when you use it unlike casting invisibility. It auto-restrains, and the enemy has to use their action to escape (not attacking you) meanwhile they have disadvantage to attack you. It is an AC of +1 effectively, because it only affects a single party member for an extended period of the fight, so it is only 1/4 as effective as permanent disadvantage.

And Blood Frenzy is going to almost always be in use, the only time it isn't is when the party is at completely full hp, which is incredibly rare. And while the effect varies depending on AC, dozens of articles have been written about how advantage is (on average) between a +4 and a+5.

It depends completely on the AC of the victim and PCs tend to have higher than normal ACs. It's +4 or +5 if the target AC is low.

Or we aren't out of town for longer than a few days and everyone tends to buy a month of rations and restock in town all the time, because rations are cheap. And I don't feel like a couple of silver every so often is really breaking anything.

Oof! You house ruled encumbrance away as well. 30 days of rations is 60 pounds. Makes making strength the dump stat a lot more attractive.

It doesn't literally mean all other things are equal, it means you HOLD all other things as being equal. Such as assuming that subclasses will have equal impact on the base class. Because if you assume all subclasses are about equal within the class, then assume every subclass affects the class power equally, then you can just compare the classes.

Then it's not a good assumption to make. All subclasses are not about equal. Some are decidedly better than others.

So your claim that all teams are equally balanced is false.

I never made that claim. Your Strawman here is what is false. I said that balance was a range.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Everything. It's just one piece of the puzzle, not a white room object like you want to make it. Neither damage, not hit points exist in isolation. This is proved by the fact that you can modify anything in the block and it doesn't shift the CR all the way to whatever you pick. If damage vs. hit points where the end all, be all you make it out to be, modifying damage in step 3 would shift CR 1 for every TWO steps. It would shift it for every step.

Then I'll start comparing damage to backgrounds. What CR is a 54 damage vs an Acolyte? Is it different than 93 damage vs a Former Cultist? Why don't we have this math! I demand the hidden math that tells me CR vs Librarian Scholar!!

I can drive a car, too. Can't build one. You can use the tools in the DMG, but you don't know how they were built. You don't have the math behind the tools.

Except... we basically do. May not be laid out, but since we know CR is "the level of a party of four against this monster" and we know the average Ability Scores, ASI's, Proficiency bonuses, and ect ect, we can pretty trivially see why Damage, HP, AC, Attack Bonus and Save DCs are where they are. You say that we can't possibly know, because they didn't give us a formula, but it sure seems like we can. After all, how do you imagine Kobold Press made their monsters? The system is there, you just want it laid out in a way that it cannot be laid out.

No. It's a fact that other abilities do exist. They aren't theoretical. DMs all over the world come up with them, being creative and all.

Cutting off where I clarify what is meant by calling them "theoritical abilities". So honest of you. I'm glad you don't try and warp the conversation to suit your own arguments. It would make trying to have any discussion with you as pleasant as having my teeth kicked in repeatedly.

It depends completely on the AC of the victim and PCs tend to have higher than normal ACs. It's +4 or +5 if the target AC is low.

PCs do not have higher than normal ACs. I don't even know how you could possibly justify that. And besides, Advantage is better the higher the target's AC is anyways.

Oof! You house ruled encumbrance away as well. 30 days of rations is 60 pounds. Makes making strength the dump stat a lot more attractive.

Oh noes! 60 lbs! But my poor character with their primary weapon, armor, and miscellaneous gear can only carry 240 lbs without any issue whatsoever! I mean, what would I do if I was carrying slightly more than 250 lbs of stuff on a 6-day journey that slowly reduced the amount of weight I was carrying!

I've done this song and dance hundreds of times, and it isn't even related to the discussion except for you to make further pot shots attempting to discredit my numbers by attacking ANYTHING ELSE besides my actual arguments.

Then it's not a good assumption to make. All subclasses are not about equal. Some are decidedly better than others.

Then those need to be fixed. But it would be kind of crappy for me to judge a classes performance just because a single subclass in it wasn't up to par. So, you hold the subclasses as equal when looking at the class, then balance the subclasses agaisnt each other. Not rocket science here.

I never made that claim. Your Strawman here is what is false. I said that balance was a range.

And that within this range teams are what is balanced, not individuals. You made that very clear. And then you threw a fit and demanded that I not use specific teams, because that wasn't fair. Guess your range was rather small.

Frankly Max? You have devolved to nothing but cheap shots and red herrings. I've shown you repeatedly that your assertions were wrong. You refuse to acknowledge and keep trying to squirm away from those points to attack me in every direction except the actual discussion. Are we done here? You successfully ruined any attempt to have a discussion about fixing healing. Congrats. Hopefully someone, somewhere else, was able to have a productive conversation that will move OD&D forward in a better direction for healing spells, potions and other abilities.

 

[Maxperson]

Then I'll start comparing damage to backgrounds. What CR is a 54 damage vs an Acolyte? Is it different than 93 damage vs a Former Cultist? Why don't we have this math! I demand the hidden math that tells me CR vs Librarian Scholar!!

You don't want to even try to understand it seems.

Except... we basically do. May not be laid out, but since we know CR is "the level of a party of four against this monster" and we know the average Ability Scores, ASI's, Proficiency bonuses, and ect ect, we can pretty trivially see why Damage, HP, AC, Attack Bonus and Save DCs are where they are. You say that we can't possibly know, because they didn't give us a formula, but it sure seems like we can. After all, how do you imagine Kobold Press made their monsters? The system is there, you just want it laid out in a way that it cannot be laid out.

Then show the background math and not just, "Hey, look at all these tools! So we know!"

PCs do not have higher than normal ACs. I don't even know how you could possibly justify that. And besides, Advantage is better the higher the target's AC is anyways.

Seriously? A PC can start with a 17(or higher) AC, which is what the tools in the DMG assigns to CR 10-12 creatures. I'd call that higher than normal for monsters. By the time the PCs hit 10-12th level, their ACs will be even higher.

Oh noes! 60 lbs! But my poor character with their primary weapon, armor, and miscellaneous gear can only carry 240 lbs without any issue whatsoever! I mean, what would I do if I was carrying slightly more than 250 lbs of stuff on a 6-day journey that slowly reduced the amount of weight I was carrying!

Okay. So your strong PC can carry the minimums. Now add all your extras and money and.................................you have a strong(16 strength) PC that can do it, maybe. Depends on how much money and extras you are carrying and what kind of armor. Most PCs aren't that strong and many dump strength to 8.

Then those need to be fixed. But it would be kind of crappy for me to judge a classes performance just because a single subclass in it wasn't up to par. So, you hold the subclasses as equal when looking at the class, then balance the subclasses agaisnt each other. Not rocket science here.

Again, balance is a range. The numbers don't have to be absolutely equal to be balanced.

And that within this range teams are what is balanced, not individuals. You made that very clear.

Teams are made of individuals. If you don't have individuals that fall into the range, then the teams can't be balanced.

 

[Chaosmancer]

sigh

You don't want to even try to understand it seems.

I do understand. I understand that damage isn't related to EVERYTHING.

Then show the background math and not just, "Hey, look at all these tools! So we know!"

Showed the math, you said it wasn't real math. There is no equation that says CR X = Hp+Damage+AC+To Hit value. CR X equals balanced (in theory) against four PCS of level X.

We know what four PCs of level X (on average) generally look like. They are why CR X has the values it does. Again, multi-equation values. This isn't X=A+B. This is F(X) = X+1/2 x D which relates to the function F(D) = Y/3 - G. And on and on. And some of those things don't have mathematical expressions. Sorry, there is no equation for how to weigh strong saves versus weak saves. There is no mathematical way to measure fire resistance against thunder immunity. They didn't make a massive computer program that runs everything through a perfectly balanced equation to make the game.

This "hidden math" is an illusion that you are clinging to in some desperate attempt to prevent discussion about changing the parts of the system that are broken. It doesn't exist. If it did exist, people would have found it. Instead, there is math where math works, and understanding of logic where math doesn't work.

Seriously? A PC can start with a 17(or higher) AC, which is what the tools in the DMG assigns to CR 10-12 creatures. I'd call that higher than normal for monsters. By the time the PCs hit 10-12th level, their ACs will be even higher.

A PC CAN start that high. Most don't. Also, PC AC is quite difficult to raise. From level 1 to level 12 a monster's to hit value can increase from +3 to +11. That is an 8 pt increase. Without magic items (which the game isn't balanced around) that PC with 17 AC is likely to tap out around 21, a 4 pt difference.

Also, you didn't say "higher than normal for monsters" you said "higher than normal". Additionally, you are just making claims, not showing that advantage can't be +4 on average.

Okay. So your strong PC can carry the minimums. Now add all your extras and money and.................................you have a strong(16 strength) PC that can do it, maybe. Depends on how much money and extras you are carrying and what kind of armor. Most PCs aren't that strong and many dump strength to 8.

sigh

Really? Fine. Let's take a moment and consider the only question of encumbrance that actually matters. Why are you giving the PCs rewards they cannot carry?

Because an 8 strength wizard? To carry all their necessary equipment is a dagger, a wand, a spellbook, and robes. So that is 9 lbs of gear. Even with 60 lbs of food that is 69 lbs and they can carry 120 lbs, so they still have 50lbs of extra space. Encumbrance isn't some quantum math problem of insane difficulty. The only question that actually matters is "why is the DM giving rewards the player's can't carry?" That's it. That's the only point where encumbrance matters.

Again, balance is a range. The numbers don't have to be absolutely equal to be balanced.

And yet, you refused to acknowledge an analysis of one subclass becuase it was "too weak" and demanded another that was "stronger" to prove balance. Must be a small range.

Teams are made of individuals. If you don't have individuals that fall into the range, then the teams can't be balanced.

So, balance is on the individual level, like I said originally. Good talk. Glad you finally agree with me.

Again, are we done here? I feel I have adequately proven myself a dozen times despite your repeated "nuh uh"s

 

[Maxperson]

I do understand. I understand that damage isn't related to EVERYTHING.



Showed the math, you said it wasn't real math. There is no equation that says CR X = Hp+Damage+AC+To Hit value. CR X equals balanced (in theory) against four PCS of level X.

We know what four PCs of level X (on average) generally look like. They are why CR X has the values it does. Again, multi-equation values. This isn't X=A+B. This is F(X) = X+1/2 x D which relates to the function F(D) = Y/3 - G. And on and on. And some of those things don't have mathematical expressions. Sorry, there is no equation for how to weigh strong saves versus weak saves. There is no mathematical way to measure fire resistance against thunder immunity. They didn't make a massive computer program that runs everything through a perfectly balanced equation to make the game.

This "hidden math" is an illusion that you are clinging to in some desperate attempt to prevent discussion about changing the parts of the system that are broken. It doesn't exist. If it did exist, people would have found it. Instead, there is math where math works, and understanding of logic where math doesn't work.

The above explanation shows that you do not understand what I am saying.

A PC CAN start that high. Most don't. Also, PC AC is quite difficult to raise. From level 1 to level 12 a monster's to hit value can increase from +3 to +11. That is an 8 pt increase. Without magic items (which the game isn't balanced around) that PC with 17 AC is likely to tap out around 21, a 4 pt difference.

Did you see the part where I said they start with above average AC. I didn't make a claim about how their ACs end.

Also, you didn't say "higher than normal for monsters" you said "higher than normal".

I didn't say it because it went without saying. Saying the PCs have higher than normal AC = monsters and NPCs usually having lower than normal ACs. Quite literally everything else besides the PCs is a monster or NPC. I didn't think I would need to explain that to you.

Additionally, you are just making claims, not showing that advantage can't be +4 on average.

It's not a +4 on anything in the upper end of the AC spectrum.

Let's take a moment and consider the only question of encumbrance that actually matters. Why are you giving the PCs rewards they cannot carry?

Because that's how treasure works. If they find 12000 gold pieces in a horde, that's 240 pounds. If they want to drag back that adamantine plate, that's 65 more pounds. It adds up.

Because an 8 strength wizard? To carry all their necessary equipment is a dagger, a wand, a spellbook, and robes. So that is 9 lbs of gear. Even with 60 lbs of food that is 69 lbs and they can carry 120 lbs, so they still have 50lbs of extra space.

You should look at wizard sheets sometime. They carry a heck of a lot more than that usually.

The only question that actually matters is "why is the DM giving rewards the player's can't carry?" That's it. That's the only point where encumbrance matters.

It's my job to set the world. It's not my job to artificially cause the world to only give them what they can carry. If they want to drag a 200 pound tapestry worth 25000 gold back to town, they can. If they decide it's too heavy, that's also a decision they can make. The tapestry isn't suddenly going to vanish or go on a diet and lose 180 pounds just so your wizard can carry it.

And yet, you refused to acknowledge an analysis of one subclass becuase it was "too weak" and demanded another that was "stronger" to prove balance. Must be a small range.

No. I just called you out for cherry picking the numbers to work out in your favor. I never said they weren't all in the balance range.

So, balance is on the individual level, like I said originally. Good talk. Glad you finally agree with me.

It's both. The game assumes a group of 4 when it works out CR. Individuals go into that group.

 

[James Gasik]

Because that's how treasure works. If they find 12000 gold pieces in a horde, that's 240 pounds. If they want to drag back that adamantine plate, that's 65 more pounds. It adds up.

Why are they bothering? It's not like the treasure does them much good.

 

[tetrasodium]

Why are they bothering? It's not like the treasure does them much good.

It doesn't add up either. strength *15 before hitting any penalty at all just means that Alice shrugs & hands something heavy to Bob Dave or Cindy & the group continues on with a sigh because the GM made them sit there to wait for Alice to calculate how much she was carrying when she wasn't bothering to track a number with an implausibly high cap before.

 

[Maxperson]

Why are they bothering? It's not like the treasure does them much good.

In my game it does. I have proactive players who come up with things to spend their money on. They build temples, buy homes in various cities they go to frequently, sometimes they will open a shop and set NPCs up to run it so they can sell the used stuff they find, and so on. Spending money is never an issue.

 

[Maxperson]

It doesn't add up either. strength *15 before hitting any penalty at all just means that Alice shrugs & hands something heavy to Bob Dave or Cindy & the group continues on with a sigh because the GM made them sit there to wait for Alice to calculate how much she was carrying when she wasn't bothering to track a number with an implausibly high cap before.

It does add up over time. It's something they track and has been an issue more than once.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The above explanation shows that you do not understand what I am saying.

It is more I really stopped caring after the fifth time you insisted on something that isn't real being the only thing that mattered.

Did you see the part where I said they start with above average AC. I didn't make a claim about how their ACs end.

And? Your original point wasn't about starting or ending AC at all. So who cares, I was pointing out how the difference between AC and to-hit bonuses.

I didn't say it because it went without saying. Saying the PCs have higher than normal AC = monsters and NPCs usually having lower than normal ACs. Quite literally everything else besides the PCs is a monster or NPC. I didn't think I would need to explain that to you.

Funny how you can have things that "go without saying" but I need to demonstrate the hidden math of 5e to be allowed to talk about healing spells and have hyper precise language. And this STILL doesn't prove that Blood Frenzy getting a +4 on average because of advantage is wrong.

It's not a +4 on anything in the upper end of the AC spectrum.

Care to support that with evidence? Or are we still playing the "Max just states things as facts" game?

Because that's how treasure works. If they find 12000 gold pieces in a horde, that's 240 pounds. If they want to drag back that adamantine plate, that's 65 more pounds. It adds up.

Okay, why not give them a single 12,000 gold piece ornamental necklace then? Then it is a pound. I have the option to do that, so why don't I?

You should look at wizard sheets sometime. They carry a heck of a lot more than that usually.

Cool, I have 50 lbs of extra space. What else am I required to carry as "necessary equipment". Because, I did specify it was only the necessary equipment, since we are playing with encumbrance.

It's my job to set the world. It's not my job to artificially cause the world to only give them what they can carry. If they want to drag a 200 pound tapestry worth 25000 gold back to town, they can. If they decide it's too heavy, that's also a decision they can make. The tapestry isn't suddenly going to vanish or go on a diet and lose 180 pounds just so your wizard can carry it.

And yet, you are the one setting that 200 lb tapestry there as a reward for them. And if it is too heavy, then they just don't take it. It doesn't matter. It is literally that simple. If they don't take it, it has zero impact on encumbrance.

I remember a DM ran us through a 2e adventure once. He was a newer DM and confused, because there was this massively heavy statue locked to the floor of this mansion with Sovereign Glue, but it had this big gold value. And he asked us what we wanted to do with it. And after confirming we had no way of interacting with it, we ignored it. It was... entirely pointless for the adventure to include. Just a way to tempt us into wasting time.

So, sure, don't have your tapestry lose weight. But also don't expect your players to care that it exists, because you by telling them it weighs more than they can carry, have declared it is useless to them.

No. I just called you out for cherry picking the numbers to work out in your favor. I never said they weren't all in the balance range.

If they were in the balance range, then it wouldn't matter whether or not I cherry picked them. They would be balanced.

It's both. The game assumes a group of 4 when it works out CR. Individuals go into that group.

Nope. It is the individuals by your own admission.