D&D 5E Deceptive Spellcasting

[abirdcall]

Lots of ways you can play the game. If your group is having fun you're doing it right. If someone else is having fun playing differently, they are doing it right too.

But we shouldn't discuss anything?

Buffing spellcasting by not having them be noticed by other characters causes all sorts of problems.

I made the thread in response to a variety of posts I have seen lately either stating that certain spells are overpowered or are must haves. It turns out in these cases the problem was ignoring the components of the spell.

For example, complaining that Guidance was broken because it made Clerics better at skills than Rogues or Bards. They were using it for Stealth and allowing the cast to ignore the verbal and somatic components.

So they were having a bad time but blaming the spell Guidance rather than their mishandling of spellcasting.

 

[Satyrn]

I feel like you haven't read my posts.

That may be because you're not expressing yourself clearly, and he's interpreted your posts differently than you intended them to be interpreted.

When I read your OP, for example, it seems like you're telling people they're playing wrong, that what you think is the right way is The Right Way.

But that's probably not what you mean, so you're probably not expressing yourself clearly.

 

[Satyrn]

But we shouldn't discuss anything?

Buffing spellcasting by not having them be noticed by other characters causes all sorts of problems.

I made the thread in response to a variety of posts I have seen lately either stating that certain spells are overpowered or are must haves. It turns out in these cases the problem was ignoring the components of the spell.

For example, complaining that Guidance was broken because it made Clerics better at skills than Rogues or Bards. They were using it for Stealth and allowing the cast to ignore the verbal and somatic components.

So they were having a bad time but blaming the spell Guidance rather than their mishandling of spellcasting.

Oh, that's better. Now I see that you're talking about helping people fix poor experiences that they've described.

 

[jaelis]

But we shouldn't discuss anything?

If you're interested in the question "Is it better to allow subtle spell casting or not?" then that's something that can be debated. But your posts do seem to come across as: "If you allow subtle spell casting then you are doing it wrong." If you're just interested in stating your opinion then what is there to debate?

Buffing spellcasting by not having them be noticed by other characters causes all sorts of problems.

I made the thread in response to a variety of posts I have seen lately either stating that certain spells are overpowered or are must haves. It turns out in these cases the problem was ignoring the components of the spell.

For example, complaining that Guidance was broken because it made Clerics better at skills than Rogues or Bards. They were using it for Stealth and allowing the cast to ignore the verbal and somatic components.

So they were having a bad time but blaming the spell Guidance rather than their mishandling of spellcasting.

Explanation like this is more helpful.

Me, I don't allow subtle spell casting in general because I think you have to say the V component firmly.

 

[jgsugden]

There is a lot of advice from Crawford out there on this topic. There are obvious physical and verbal elements to spellcasting, but you can disguise them, hide them or obscure them if you're smart.

Casting a spell in a loud and bustling marketplace, even when it involves huge gestures and loud speaking, might go unnoticed by the target. If the spell has no obvious signs, the target may never know it was the subject of a spell. That is all well explained in the rules / advice.

If you have a quiet room, the spellcaster is mere feet from the target and the spell has verbal and somatic components ... well, you need to be able to mislead the target if you want them to not realize you've cast a spell. Do you have an excuse for the gestures, weird speech and bat guano you're flinging / bell you're chiming / etc...? Those things might not be too out of place if they come from someone that looks like a crazy person... or might seem perfectly logical as part of a blessing or ceremony. Can the spellcaster pull off such a ruse? Sounds like a roleplaying challenge to me.

In the end, I think the proper question is not, "What is too powerful?" I think the question to be asked when a PC wants to pull this type of thing off is, "What is the most fun way to proceed?"

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My view of casting is that the components aren't set in stone. Those listed or described are the "traditional" ones, and many casters will view them as having to be exactly right, while others will use completely different sounds and gestures (Fuego! Rather than Ignis! To set a thing on fire) to cast the same spell.

I also figure it is harder to cast subtly, because you are splitting focus, and the components are there to help focus your will as it is.

 

[abirdcall]

In the end, I think the proper question is not, "What is too powerful?" I think the question to be asked when a PC wants to pull this type of thing off is, "What is the most fun way to proceed?"

What do you do when a character wants to cast a spell? Is it a skill check?

What if they want to add damage to their attack by describing how they attack harder than usual?

Isn't it more fun to do so? Isn't that roleplaying?

The thing is, there needs to be rules. Saying that no, you can't just whisper the verbal components this time, isn't any different than saying, no you can't just fly because you are flapping your arms. And saying no isn't to take away anyone's fun, it is because the rest of the players have all agreed to play a game with rules rather than magical tea party. If a player wants to play magical tea party they should have said so before play begins.

 

[not-so-newguy]

The most common form of this is having a character whisper the Verbal components. They require "specific pitch and resonance" and as such should not be able to be whispered.

Somatic components "...include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures." You can't change the gestures of a spell just to make it more subtle.

I agree with 100%. This issue has periodically pops up in almost every game I've played or DMed. Usually in urban encounters. IMC, spell casters gesticulate and speak just like bad Shakespearean actors. If you want to be Subtle, be a sorcerer.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I agree with 100%. This issue has periodically pops up in almost every game I've played or DMed. Usually in urban encounters. IMC, spell casters gesticulate and speak just like bad Shakespearean actors. If you want to be Subtle, be a sorcerer.

Or good Shakespearean actors. That's just how he wrote the parts.

I'm partial to the phrase, "bellow an incantation," when describing a verbal component.

 

[not-so-newguy]

Or good Shakespearean actors. That's just how he wrote the parts.

I'm partial to the phrase, "bellow an incantation," when describing a verbal component.

It's bad acting, if I'm the one doing it. I'm a big fan of "sawing the air too much." Definitely a big air-sawer-er here