D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[billd91]

Roll initiative as normal. If there had been some secrecy going on, then a check (most likely deception vs insight) can determine if any surprise exists. But otherwise, even if someone suddenly throws down for a fight, it's normal initiative all the way. Characters/NPCs who have invested in ways to have a better initiative deserve those benefits, plus I'm not interested in incentivizing players to always cut off their opponents and their monologuing just to get some unearned advantage of a first attack.

 

[Lyxen]

Initiative has been created exactly for this, the fact that he drew his rapier does not mean that someone was not very aware and prepared, etc.

The only thing that we do is allow readied actions to be carried in combat, but they have to be specific. For example: "I watch the enemy mage closely, and at the first whiff of spellcasting, I roll inside the gateway just next to me.".

While initiative closely models (many of us have decades of LARP experience) the fact that the start of combat is very unpredictable, we also find it bizarre that it completely resets what people were specifically watching for. Not only is it better for our sense of verisimilitude, but it also encourages players to be more attentive to the details of this situations, to project themselves in there and try to think "as if they were there", to anticipate what the opposition would do, etc.

For example we were discussing with a crazy bard, trying to recover a precious harp to end the weather curse of Sydon, the Lord of Storms. I was afraid that the bard would smash or damage the harp, so I had prepared an action to stop him if he tried. And it worked out that way when combat started, it was very specific...

 

[Maxperson]

Initiative has been created exactly for this, the fact that he drew his rapier does not mean that someone was not very aware and prepared, etc.

But it does mean that before my guy who is moving first can reach back and then throw the dagger that was already in his hand, your guy can pull out a greatsword, move forward 30 feet and then swing at me. What happened to your argument of simultaneous combat? If it's simultaneous, it's impossible for you to beat me at throwing that dagger from 30 feet away.

 

[Lyxen]

But it does mean that before my guy who is moving first can reach back and then throw the dagger that was already in his hand, your guy can pull out a greatsword, move forward 30 feet and then swing at me. What happened to your argument of simultaneous combat? If it's simultaneous, it's impossible for you to beat me at throwing that dagger from 30 feet away.

Please, not this again, you have proven that your point of view only leads to inconsistencies that you cannot solve, because you cannot decide whether a round is 6 seconds or the number of participants times six seconds because everyone freezes when it's someone else's turn.

Once more, the narrative can be absolutely anything you like, only the resolution is sequential. So just see what the resolution decides and weave your narrative around this, it can always be done taking into account the circumstances. And in your specific case above, once more, read books of the genre. The throwing guy was itchy and telegraphed his move, he was obviously going to throw a dagger, but the other guy was simply quickler. Remember, "reaching back and throw the dagger" was only his intention. The players only say what they want their character to do, but the system, the other players and the DM decide what really happens collectively and the DM describes it. While your guy was reaching for his throw, the other, with lightning reflexes, closed the gap, drawing as he went and smote him. So many examples in books, comics, movies, etc.

 

[Quickleaf]

Often "swords out, dice out" is a good rule-of-thumb. But whenever initiative questions arise, I prefer to look at the context, because I think MOST of the methods you describe could make sense depending on the specific context.

So my first step with your example is "reading the room." If it seems like the instigating player is alone in wanting to do this fight and the fight could have outcomes that disrupt other players' enjoyment, I'd pause, acknowledge the instigator's intent and readiness ("ok, you've gone for your sword"), and then I'd check in with the other players about what they want to do and what they'd like to see happen. This gives the other players a chance to talk down their instigating companion in a way that's non-disruptive and lets the instigator still take some spotlight in a roleplaying sense.

Similarly, if it's just this one PC and this one mouthy noble who are throwing down – the rest of the players are watching and just heckling, same with the noble's entourage – then in a 1v1 I'd dispense with initiative entirely and use simultaneous initiative.

However, if everyone's game for combat, then the instigator might go...

Normal Initiative Order: Everyone in both groups are clearly opposed, no player is going to try to talk the instigating player down, there's the opportunity/motivation for a fight, there are some stakes to the fight, it's not going to be interrupted immediately by the authorities, etc. Totally regular initiative order. If the player's intent is not to deal hit point damage but some other effect, like cutting off the mouthy noble's kerchief or something flavorful, basically it's just the player signaling "I'm picking a fight."

At the top of initiative: If I've narrated the opposition as particularly unprepared or overconfident. If the opposition was deliberately trying to lure the PCs into attacking first to get them in trouble with authorities or to invoke "self defense." If the opposition is overwhelming (i.e. no prayer for players to defeat them) and is toying with the PCs. If the opposition is really weak... and in this case initiative might not even be necessary because it's going to be over quick.

During normal initiative but with chance of people on both sides could be surprised: I would use surprise if the instigating player's intent is to get the drop on the mouthy noble's entourage; the player would roll Deception vs. the Insight of the enemies, and whether the rest of the PC's friends would need to roll Insight would depend on specific situation.

At the top of initiative, with the chance people on both sides could be surprised it's starting now: Getting automatic top of the initiative with surprise is something I rarely use as a reward for excellent recon/preparation/strategy/sabotage. Because your example scene seems more spontaneous, I wouldn't use this particular option for this context.

EDIT: I'm very much a contextual DM, and I prefer to play with players who can I can build trust with so I can creatively flex things like initiative to better reflect our shared story. However, I know some players hate this approach ("the rules are the rules"), so my step 1 is always read the group I'm running for.

 

[Maxperson]

Please, not this again, you have proven that your point of view only leads to inconsistencies that you cannot solve, because you cannot decide whether a round is 6 seconds or the number of participants times six seconds because everyone freezes when it's someone else's turn.

This doesn't even concern 6 seconds. It concerns the utter impossibity I stated above. Your way of intitiative leads to non-simultaneous combat with impossible situations.

Once more, the narrative can be absolutely anything you like, only the resolution is sequential.

No it can't. There is no narrative where the fighter above reacts to my PCs arm pulling backwards to throw where that fighter begins to draw his greatsword, moves 30 feet and attacks before my throw completes. No normal one anyway. If you want the god of mischief to grant him time altering speed, then sure.

The throwing guy was itchy and telegraphed his move, he was obviously going to throw a dagger, but the other guy was simply quickler.

Not draw a sword, move 30 feet and swing it quicker. Not possible. Do you roll initiative and start combats whenever anyone looks shifty? Because looking shifty is what you are saying here starts a combat.

Remember, "reaching back and throw the dagger" was only his intention.

So now the fighter is a mind reader and isn't reacting to an action, but an intention?

The players only say what they want their character to do, but the system, the other players and the DM decide what really happens collectively and the DM describes it. While your guy was reaching for his throw, the other, with lightning reflexes, closed the gap, drawing as he went and smote him. So many examples in books, comics, movies, etc.

Yes. Comic books in which the Flash is doing it. Without some sort of super speed, it doesn't happen in comic books, either. Not in the circumstances I described above.

There's no way your fighter is pulling a greatsword, moving 30 feet and attacking me before I complete my drawback and throw.

 

[Horwath]

Roll initiative as normal. If there had been some secrecy going on, then a check (most likely deception vs insight) can determine if any surprise exists. But otherwise, even if someone suddenly throws down for a fight, it's normal initiative all the way. Characters/NPCs who have invested in ways to have a better initiative deserve those benefits, plus I'm not interested in incentivizing players to always cut off their opponents and their monologuing just to get some unearned advantage of a first attack.

Insight is always a good choice in sudden start of combat in social situation.

It's "reading" the room. You can see if someone is ready to hit you or just talking out of their behind, most of the time.

 

[Lyxen]

There's no way your fighter is pulling a greatsword, moving 30 feet and attacking me before I complete my drawback and throw.

Look, I won't discuss this with you anymore, D&D is not a realistic game, never has been, the only thing that he models is the (high) fantasy genre. It works perfectly well for millions of people around the planet. If YOU decide the the game hurts YOUR way of describing situations because of YOUR personal constraints about what is possible or not in your world, it's YOUR problem, deal with YOUR inconsistencies in YOUR game. What you describe might not be possible at your table, then decide what you want to do, but don't go around telling other people at their tables that what they are doing is wrong and impossible, it's not for them, it works perfectly well and we have tons of examples of this in the genre, and telling anyone that they are playing wrong is bad form anyway.

 

[Flamestrike]

Do you roll initiative and that person goes where they go?

Yep, that's both the RAW, and it makes sense.

It goes like this:

Player: I draw my weapon and stab him!
DM: Alright, you reach for your weapon with anger in your eyes, as he looks on aghast, reaching for his own! Everyone roll initiative.

Assuming the NPC goes first, he gets to react to the player (beating him on the draw) and resolving his action first. Ditto any other PCs.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

If the comedic timing is right, sure, I might laugh. But I also might just get cheesed off that I was having my moment at the table and some player had to horn in and cut me off. It's the same thing as that sort of player that is always interrupting other players, unable to let someone else have the spotlight.

Either way, they still have to roll initiative like everyone else.

Exactly this.

Normal initiative rolls unless there's a genuine possibility of surprise. No free actions for cutting off dialogue. I'm not incentivizing that behavior.