D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[billd91]

Just curious on how you think Vegas or pretty much anyone else would bet on this situation.

I'm standing with a knife in hand. Usain Bolt is 30 feet away with a greatsword on his back and in chain mail armor. Heck, let's make him unarmored. He is not allowed to even begin to move until I start to throw the knife. How many would bet on Bolt to reach me with his sword out before I can throw the knife?

That's what initiative is for. Suppose Usain Bolt noticed your eye twitch and correctly interpreted that as you about to start hostilities. By the time you're pulling out your dagger, he's already on the move... because he got a better initiative than you did.

We're not talking about simulating realism - we're simulating a genre of storytelling where the larger-than-life characters do things that normal people can't do. And even a notorious gunslinger sometimes gets beat on the draw when he's starting the fight.

 

[Irlo]

Other. I have gone on a case-by-case basis, decided more on how the particular scene seems to the group and less on a need for a strict, consistent rule.

 

[Maxperson]

But this is EXACTLY the same issue as when initiative is just normally rolled. Earlier editions tried to compensate with weapon speeds, etc. - something the current edition designers obviously felt were way to clunky for the small payoff.

In 5e if the greatsword guy wins initiative, yes he can move 30' and attack before the dagger guy throws.

Sure. If there is no set action, then yes, the guy from 30 feet away can start moving before the guy with the dagger knows what's going on and can react. That's different from the dagger throw being in motion before the guy 30 feet away can start moving.

As I said in my first post, it's situational. If I'm in a situation where the dagger throw is in motion, then the outcome is not in doubt so he wins initiative. Everyone else gets to roll and act normally. If I'm in a normal situation where two groups meet, say a group of orcs turning the corner in a dungeon and seeing the party 30 feet away, then it's normal initiative and go. The outcome is in doubt.

 

[Maxperson]

That's what initiative is for. Suppose Usain Bolt noticed your eye twitch and correctly interpreted that as you about to start hostilities. By the time you're pulling out your dagger, he's already on the move... because he got a better initiative than you did.

Noticing an eye twitch isn't what initiative is for. That's what perception is for. Then if you notice the eye twitch, insight would be needed to determine that it's intent to attack vs. a muscle spasm vs. nervousness. vs.. vs.. vs..

 

[Irlo]

Noticing an eye twitch isn't what initiative is for. That's what perception is for. Then if you notice the eye twitch, insight would be needed to determine that it's intent to attack vs. a muscle spasm vs. nervousness. vs.. vs.. vs..

As I see it, initiative an abstract game mechanic. What’s it for? To determine sequence of action resolution in a game. We can layer a narrative over that to explain the results however we want. Perception, instinct, skill, reflexes, an angel’s voice in your ear, a pinch from your familiar, sheer luck, etc. Or we can roll the dice and not explain it narratively at all.

 

[Mort]

Sure. If there is no set action, then yes, the guy from 30 feet away can start moving before the guy with the dagger knows what's going on and can react. That's different from the dagger throw being in motion before the guy 30 feet away can start moving.

As I said in my first post, it's situational. If I'm in a situation where the dagger throw is in motion, then the outcome is not in doubt so he wins initiative. Everyone else gets to roll and act normally. If I'm in a normal situation where two groups meet, say a group of orcs turning the corner in a dungeon and seeing the party 30 feet away, then it's normal initiative and go. The outcome is in doubt.

What you've described here, is essentially surprise. The outcome is not in doubt BECAUSE the greatsword guy didn't anticipate the dagger guy drawing and throwing.

If the greatsword guy doesn't know that the dagger guy is drawing and throwing - then 5e handles that with surprise. Initiative IS rolled but even if the greatsword guy goes first, he won't ACT first.

Noticing an eye twitch isn't what initiative is for. That's what perception is for. Then if you notice the eye twitch, insight would be needed to determine that it's intent to attack vs. a muscle spasm vs. nervousness. vs.. vs.. vs..

Initiative is rolled WHEN the dagger guy attacks. The DM then determines surprise, if the Dagger guy surprised the greatsword guy - he goes first. If there is no surprise, the Greatsword guy IF he wins initiative, can close the distance and attack first.

At least that's what works for me.

 

[Maxperson]

What you've described here, is essentially surprise. The outcome is not in doubt BECAUSE the greatsword guy didn't anticipate the dagger guy drawing and throwing.

No. The outcome is not in doubt because it's impossible for the greatsword guy to reach the dagger thrower and attack before the dagger thrower completes his action. He automatically loses initiative to him. He is not surprised and gets to act in the round, it's just after the dagger thrower.

 

[Maxperson]

As I see it, initiative an abstract game mechanic. What’s it for? To determine sequence of action resolution in a game. We can layer a narrative over that to explain the results however we want. Perception, instinct, skill, reflexes, an angel’s voice in your ear, a pinch from your familiar, sheer luck, etc. Or we can roll the dice and not explain it narratively at all.

I personally don't like to rely on things like that, because the fighter is probably not a super perceptive and insightful guy. And angel's voices, sheer luck and so on just don't explain everything and really start to stretch believability if they happen on a regular basis, which is what rolling in those situations causes.

If the fighter is super perceptive and insightful, then maybe he does succeed at figuring it out before the dagger guy starts to move, but that's going to still require a roll of some sort. If the positions were reversed and the NPC was the dagger thrower and the PC fighter 30 feet away was a super perceptive and insightful guy, I'd give him a chance to figure it out quickly enough to potentially act first. I need a good reason already set forth in the fiction to override that sort of initiative advantage, though.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

For two groups that are facing each other somewhat ready for physical conflict I just adapt the KISS principle and let both sides roll initiative and have at it.

Depending on feats and verbally expressed clever preparedness etc I might throw someone a first action on top of initiative or such, if it makes the combat more fun than just hit and check off hp. But then again this isn't a big deal for my table. Fun is more important than having ultraspecified mechanics to follow to the dot.

Since I might reward innovative players that way, I tend to have my encounters a wee bit buffed.

And imho the only time the op question really matters are at the first levels or in a boss encounter, but for the latter I probably have a bit more complex and prepped set piece battle.

 

[Mort]

No. The outcome is not in doubt because it's impossible for the greatsword guy to reach the dagger thrower and attack before the dagger thrower completes his action. He automatically loses initiative to him. He is not surprised and gets to act in the round, it's just after the dagger thrower.

See for me, in the context of D&D, "impossible" is practically a no-no word. There are just SO MANY factors that could influence this scenario (the alert feat, weapons of warning etc. many more mundane things) that I HATE to rule automatic initiative just because I (me the DM) think the scenario is not possible. Especially when there is an easy way to resolve it with less DM fiat.