D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[billd91]

I personally don't like to rely on things like that, because the fighter is probably not a super perceptive and insightful guy.

Why? But even if he isn't the most perceptive about walking into deviously placed deadfalls, there's no reason to believe he doesn't have situational awareness and the ability to anticipate certain activities in an interaction that might lead to violence.

 

[Yaarel]

The player that attacks out of the blue does what the one does.

Everyone after that might be surprised.

After that, normal initiative for everyone, including the original instigator.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Sometimes I let them resolve the action that started combat before we roll initiative sometimes I don't, it depends on the overall circumstances and particularly depends on if the nature of the action would be obvious enough to start combat by simply beginning to attempt it. I don't make any change to the initiative order.

I guess technically that's equivalent to having a full round where everyone except the initiator is surprised but that's not really how I conceptualize it.

 

[Maxperson]

Why? But even if he isn't the most perceptive about walking into deviously placed deadfalls, there's no reason to believe he doesn't have situational awareness and the ability to anticipate certain activities in an interaction that might lead to violence.

To the point that he can discern the different between a muscle spasm, nervous twitch, physical tick, intent to attack and several other options that all look the same?

 

[Maxperson]

See for me, in the context of D&D, "impossible" is practically a no-no word. There are just SO MANY factors that could influence this scenario (the alert feat, weapons of warning etc. many more mundane things) that I HATE to rule automatic initiative just because I (me the DM) think the scenario is not possible. Especially when there is an easy way to resolve it with less DM fiat.

Sure. I already said several times "normal." If there's some sort of supernatural warning or a feat or something else, then that changes things. Which loops me right back to............................it's situational.

 

[billd91]

To the point that he can discern the different between a muscle spasm, nervous twitch, physical tick, intent to attack and several other options that all look the same?

You may not be able to conceive of doing so, but this is a character who routinely goes into stupidly dangerous areas, gets into life and death struggles multiple times a day, and doesn’t suffer from PTSD. I think he’s got capabilities beyond your ken.

 

[Maxperson]

You may not be able to conceive of doing so, but this is a character who routinely goes into stupidly dangerous areas, gets into life and death struggles multiple times a day, and doesn’t suffer from PTSD. I think he’s got capabilities beyond your ken.

I'm not seeing them written anywhere in the job description. I AM seeing where perception and insight serve that function for these characters who routinely go into stupidly dangerous situations, though.

Your argument would apply elsewhere as well. No PC would have a low perception in a stupidly dangerous situation. It would skyrocket up to automatically successful, because that's what they do multiple times a day. And so on.

 

[Irlo]

I'm not seeing them written anywhere in the job description. I AM seeing where perception and insight serve that function for these characters who routinely go into stupidly dangerous situations, though.

Your argument would apply elsewhere as well. No PC would have a low perception in a stupidly dangerous situation. It would skyrocket up to automatically successful, because that's what they do multiple times a day. And so on.

Not automatically successful. There's still the initiative roll.

But seriously, if I have to chose between 1) a perception check, and then maybe an insight check, and then maybe an initiative roll or 2) abstracting all that into an initiative roll, I'm going for option #2 almost every time.

 

[ECMO3]

The party is in full view of an opposed group. Maybe they are talking, but there's no question that the other group is there and there is a general wariness that combat may occur but it's not definite. Very important - it is not definite that combat will occur.

One of the people involved declares something that will start combat. "When he insults my family I draw my rapier and stab him." There isn't anything particularly sneaky about it, like a subtle spell.

Do you roll initiative and that person goes where they go? Do you roll initiative but put them at the top? Do you treat it as possible surprise that combat is breaking out "right this second" and do something like roll insight or perception to see which combatants (on both sides) are surprised and not going in a first round? Or something else?

I voted other. I think any way to do this is fine as long as everone knows ahead of time and I have not found a way that is "the best". Some ways are "the best" mechanically, others are "the best" thematically ..... and other ways are best at ensuring you kill the party

When I DM and surprise is not a factor and they are not immediately hostile a player can start combat and that player acts first, gets a full turn AND loses his first turn in order. Basically he beats everyone else on the 1st round and then when it gets around to him on the first round he can't do anything (although his reaction counter does reset). So we are talking to the guard and a player decides he wants to start the fight, then he can and can get the first turn, then we roll initiative - if he gets a 10 everyone else goes once and then everyone with higher than a 10 goes a second time and then he goes again. Theoretically the other side can do this too too, although if the bad guys don't attack on sight it is usually because they don't want to attack so it is rare that they use this. Either side can also ready an action to counter this. So you are talking and one player is afraid a fight is going to break out - "if the enemy reaches for his sword I fling a dagger at him". If that happens the reaction goes then the actor that started combat goes, then as above. I limit such readied actions to characters (PCs and NPCs) that are not doing something else. So if you are the guy talking to the guard you can't ready such an action.

If anyone is actually surprised then initiative is rolled and it goes turn-by-turn, whether it is all of them or just one of them. Players can ready an action if they want: Ypu surprise everyone and Rick the Ranger wins initiative and he says "after Mike the Mage casts his stinking cloud I shoot the closest guy who is not wretching". If everyone on the other side is surprised this can be a bunch of readied actions that happen at once at the bottom of a round.

That is how I run it and it works ok. There are plusses and minuses, but I like it thematically.

Other DMs I have played with run it differently. One one of the current DMs in a game I play is straight initiative. You can't even ready an action out of combat. That is fine.

 

[Ancalagon]

Roll for initiative

"He decided to kill me while I was looking him right in the eyes, and I never saw it. But Kurn did, and he was three meters away."
"Worf, I don't think you can tell someone's going to kill you by looking at them."
"A Klingon can. It is an instinct. The ability to look someone in the eyes and see the decision to kill. An instinct I no longer have."

When a fight starts, there is a moment where someone decides to start the fight, where everything changes. And that moment can be picked up by trained warriors , and they might react faster than the person drawing their sword to attack.