D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[UngeheuerLich]

I am inclined to say that it is in normal initiative order. But In that case that depends how the situation was before. If it was tense anyway, no surprise. If the situation was completely calm, I might allow a sleight of hand check to get the rapier out (as an action maybe) and allow to move in. A thief might do it with sleight of hand as a bonus action.

 

[Maxperson]

Look, I won't discuss this with you anymore, D&D is not a realistic game, never has been, the only thing that he models is the (high) fantasy genre. It works perfectly well for millions of people around the planet. If YOU decide the the game hurts YOUR way of describing situations because of YOUR personal constraints about what is possible or not in your world, it's YOUR problem, deal with YOUR inconsistencies in YOUR game. What you describe might not be possible at your table, then decide what you want to do, but don't go around telling other people at their tables that what they are doing is wrong and impossible, it's not for them, it works perfectly well and we have tons of examples of this in the genre, and telling anyone that they are playing wrong is bad form anyway.

I'm not in any way saying you are playing the game wrong. Don't accuse me of that again. I'm saying that it's not simultaneous combat if you allow the fighter to act as you are allowing, and yes I get that the game doesn't make sense and isn't realistic. But when I argue that the game allows things that aren't realistic and don't make sense, you come back at me as if it's a problem to argue that. It's okay for the game not to be realistic when you argue, but when I argued that RAW is turn based and not realistic, you jumped on me for it.

 

[Lyxen]

I'm not in any way saying you are playing the game wrong. Don't accuse me of that again. I'm saying that it's not simultaneous combat if you allow the fighter to act as you are allowing,

Actually it is perfectly simultaneous. The dagger guy declares that he is going to throw that dagger, while he is preparing to do this and even winding his arm, the other guy jumps at him, drawing and cutting. And while that other guy is still trying to finish the dagger guy, that one will end up throwing that dagger (or not). Totally simultaneous, no-one is stupidly freezing in mid-air. Just because the resolution is sequential does not mean that the description has to be. People are running and swinging all the time, it would be utterly absurd to describe anything else.

 

[jgsugden]

I selected other because there is no set rule, and I evaluate these circumstances based upon the totality of circumstances.

Generally speaking: If there is a general concern that hostility could arise, it is just a flat initiative roll.

If it isn't obvious, I have everyone roll an insight or perception roll to realize where things are headed. The insight generally has a lower DC (you're reading the people to catch their intent before they act with insight, and perception allows you to catch when people start to physically move towards hostile action). The DCs will usually be flat as the other people are not trying to hide their actions. If you fail, you're surprised.

 

[Maxperson]

Actually it is perfectly simultaneous. The dagger guy declares that he is going to throw that dagger, while he is preparing to do this and even winding his arm, the other guy jumps at him, drawing and cutting.

From 30 feet away? He's going to jump at him and attack before he can throw? This attempt to justify being simultaneous falls flat. There's no normal way you are going to run 30 feet at someone, draw a greatsword and attack before the throw finishes.

 

[billd91]

From 30 feet away? He's going to jump at him and attack before he can throw? This attempt to justify being simultaneous falls flat. There's no normal way you are going to run 30 feet at someone, draw a greatsword and attack before the throw finishes.

Give it up. Arguing about what seems possible to you isn’t going to cut any mustard with the rest of us.

 

[Lyxen]

From 30 feet away? He's going to jump at him and attack before he can throw?

Once more, just because the player of "throwing guy" says "my character is going to throw that dagger" does NOT mean that it will happen first thing in the game. There is a resolution system for that, and to take into account the fact that he has the reflexes of a dumb slug, that he hesitated, that he thought about something else or that he was distracted by anything that a DM can imagine, which actually delayed his throw, allowing someone who completely came out of the blue to jump at him from 30 feet away, because that is not that far when you are distracted.

Once more, your very basic hypothesis is wrong, that if someone declares something, it's going to happen. The system TELLS YOU EXPLICITELY that the player only declares and that the DM describes the result, which might be completely different from what the player has declared because other players and other elements intervened.

 

[Maxperson]

Once more, just because the player of "throwing guy" says "my character is going to throw that dagger" does NOT mean that it will happen first thing in the game. There is a resolution system for that, and to take into account the fact that he has the reflexes of a dumb slug, that he hesitated, that he thought about something else or that he was distracted by anything that a DM can imagine, which actually delayed his throw, allowing someone who completely came out of the blue to jump at him from 30 feet away, because that is not that far when you are distracted.

Once more, your very basic hypothesis is wrong, that if someone declares something, it's going to happen. The system TELLS YOU EXPLICITELY that the player only declares and that the DM describes the result, which might be completely different from what the player has declared because other players and other elements intervened.

There is a resolution system. That system says that for ability checks, and initiative is an ability check, the DM determines if success is automatic, failure is automatic, or the outcome is in doubt. Only if it is in doubt and with meaningful consequence for failure do you roll.

 

[Maxperson]

Give it up. Arguing about what seems possible to you isn’t going to cut any mustard with the rest of us.

Just curious on how you think Vegas or pretty much anyone else would bet on this situation.

I'm standing with a knife in hand. Usain Bolt is 30 feet away with a greatsword on his back and in chain mail armor. Heck, let's make him unarmored. He is not allowed to even begin to move until I start to throw the knife. How many would bet on Bolt to reach me with his sword out before I can throw the knife?

 

[Mort]

Just curious on how you think Vegas or pretty much anyone else would bet on this situation.

I'm standing with a knife in hand. Usain Bolt is 30 feet away with a greatsword on his back and in chain mail armor. Heck, let's make him unarmored. He is not allowed to even begin to move until I start to throw the knife. How many would bet on Bolt to reach me with his sword out before I can throw the knife?

But this is EXACTLY the same issue as when initiative is just normally rolled. Earlier editions tried to compensate with weapon speeds, etc. - something the current edition designers obviously felt were way to clunky for the small payoff.

In 5e if the greatsword guy wins initiative, yes he can move 30' and attack before the dagger guy throws.

BUT, there might be additional factors in play. The dagger guy might very well be sneaky enough to draw and throw before the greatsword guy sees him. If the greatsword guy is surprised it doesn't matter if he wins initiative (which is still rolled), the dagger guy acts first. That's really how you resolve this weirdness.