declaring actions

[billd91]

I'm not sure how good your chance of disrupting a spell is. Spell casting times are equal to the spell level, but weapon speed factors are usually higher. For example, long sword has a speed factor of 5. The fighter is going to be at an initiative disadvantage until high level spells. How did you run this?

Weapon speeds were actually optional, but if you used them, they generally reduced by 1 per + of the weapon.

But even so, it's really when you get the higher level spells that this becomes a major issue. The wizards have to trade off a more powerful spell for a quick less powerful one.

Plus, if you got initiative, as long as you hit the spellcaster before his initiative roll came up, he couldn't cast the spell. So even with a slower weapon, with a better roll than the spell caster's, you had a decent chance to disrupt. With cyclical initiative and most spells being just a standard action, the only way to catch one mid-cast is with a held action or AoO. In 1e/2e, you could pre-empt.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

We don't have a declaration phase in our 4e game, but we do have an absolute moratorium on talking tactics at the table between turns.

Anything longer than "Argh! I need healing!" or "Kill the wizard NOW!" is forbidden. Works a treat for keeping combats chaotic and disorganised, and provides some wonderful moments.

 

[Woas]

Depends what game I'm playing and how the rules are.

For example in one game, every character has a perception skill. The person with the lowest (worst) skill states their character's action and then you go up the line next-best, next-best (this includes the GM and NPCs they are playing) until the person with the highest (best) skill states their character's actions fully allowed to utilize complete knowledge they learned from hearing what the lower skilled characters stated. Then once everyone has stated actions, you resolve them in reverse.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I'm not sure how good your chance of disrupting a spell is. Spell casting times are equal to the spell level, but weapon speed factors are usually higher. For example, long sword has a speed factor of 5. The fighter is going to be at an initiative disadvantage until high level spells. How did you run this?

If I'm running D&D using weapon speeds and casting times, I use the 1e rules, which allow for interruption of the spell even in cases where the spell caster's side has won initiative. You subtract the losing side's initiative die roll (a d6) from the weapon speed factor, treating the result as an absolute value (i.e. the distance of the result from 0), then compare the adjusted weapon speed to the casting time.

So consider a longsword (factor 5) vs. sleep (1 segment casting time), where the longsword wielder lost initiative on a roll of 4. Speed factor 5 - losing roll of 4 = adjusted factor of 1. Adjusted factor of 1 is the same as casting time of 1, so the sword blow and the spell are simultaneous. If the longsword wielder had lost initiative on a roll of 3, you'd have 5 - 3 = 2. In that case, the adjusted factor of 2 is greater than the casting time, and the spell would go first. If the longsword wielder had lost initiative on a roll of 5, you'd have 5 - 5 = 0. In that case, the adjusted factor of 0 is less than the casting time of 1, so the sword attack would go first (and potentially interrupt the spell), despite the lost initiative roll.

Thus, suppose side A, which has achieved initiative (action) for the round, has a magic-user engaged in casting a spell. Compare the speed factor of the weapon with the number of segments which the spell will require to cast to determine if the spell will be cast/strike first, subtracting the losing die roll on the initiative die roll from the weapon factor and treating negative results as positive. Example: A sword with a factor of 5 (broad or long) is being used by an opponent of a magic-user attempting to cast a fireball spell (3 segment casting time). If the sword-wielding attacker was represented by a losing initiative die roll of 1, the spell will be cast prior to the sword's blow. A 2 will indicate that the spell and the blow are completed simultaneously. A 3-5 will indicate that the blow has a chance of striking (if a successful "to hit" roll is made) before the spell is cast, arriving either as the spell is begun or during the first segment of its casting. Suppose that a dagger were being employed. It has a speed factor of 2, so it will strike prior to spell completion if the initiative roll which lost was 1-4 (the adjusted segment indicator being 1, 0, 1, 2 respectively) and simultaneously if the die score was a 5. If the weapon being employed was a two-handed sword (or any other weapon with a speed factor of 10, or 9 for that matter) there would be no chance for the reacting side to strike the spell caster prior to completion of the fireball. Note that even though a spell takes but 1 segment to complete, this is 6 seconds, and during that period a reacting attacker might be able to attack the magic-user or other spell caster prior to actual completion of the spell! If combat is simultaneous, there is no modification of the weapon speed factor.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'm not sure how good your chance of disrupting a spell is. Spell casting times are equal to the spell level, but weapon speed factors are usually higher. For example, long sword has a speed factor of 5. The fighter is going to be at an initiative disadvantage until high level spells. How did you run this?

Weapon speed is for duels or for breaking ties in initiative only.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

sleep[/i] (1 segment casting time), where the longsword wielder lost initiative on a roll of 4. Speed factor 5 - losing roll of 4 = adjusted factor of 1. Adjusted factor of 1 is the same as casting time of 1, so the sword blow and the spell are simultaneous. If the longsword wielder had lost initiative on a roll of 3, you'd have 5 - 3 = 2. In that case, the adjusted factor of 2 is greater than the casting time, and the spell would go first. If the longsword wielder had lost initiative on a roll of 5, you'd have 5 - 5 = 0. In that case, the adjusted factor of 0 is less than the casting time of 1, so the sword attack would go first (and potentially interrupt the spell), despite the lost initiative roll.

Remember also that if the magic user even used his dex bonus to dodge the attack, the spell failed.

 

[Freakohollik]

If I'm running D&D using weapon speeds and casting times, I use the 1e rules, which allow for interruption of the spell even in cases where the spell caster's side has won initiative. You subtract the losing side's initiative die roll (a d6) from the weapon speed factor, treating the result as an absolute value (i.e. the distance of the result from 0), then compare the adjusted weapon speed to the casting time.

So consider a longsword (factor 5) vs. sleep (1 segment casting time), where the longsword wielder lost initiative on a roll of 4. Speed factor 5 - losing roll of 4 = adjusted factor of 1. Adjusted factor of 1 is the same as casting time of 1, so the sword blow and the spell are simultaneous. If the longsword wielder had lost initiative on a roll of 3, you'd have 5 - 3 = 2. In that case, the adjusted factor of 2 is greater than the casting time, and the spell would go first. If the longsword wielder had lost initiative on a roll of 5, you'd have 5 - 5 = 0. In that case, the adjusted factor of 0 is less than the casting time of 1, so the sword attack would go first (and potentially interrupt the spell), despite the lost initiative roll.

Ah, a special case to allow the weapon guy to have a better chance. This is pretty confusing and just further reminds me why I don't do initiative modifiers. Also, I didn't see that in the DMG. Are you sure it's in those pages?

 

[MerricB]

I'm not sure how good your chance of disrupting a spell is. Spell casting times are equal to the spell level, but weapon speed factors are usually higher. For example, long sword has a speed factor of 5. The fighter is going to be at an initiative disadvantage until high level spells. How did you run this?

In first edition, according to the rules as written (if rarely played), if you won initiative, you compared the speed factor of the weapon with the number of segments which the spell will require to cast, subtracting the losing roll on the initiative die roll from the weapon factor and treating negative results as positive.

Thus, A long sword striking at a fireball caster: if the losing die roll was 1, the spell would be cast prior to the spell roll. If the losing roll was 2, then it is simultaneous. On a 3-5, then the sword strikes first.

Those aren't good odds for the spellcaster.

Cheers!

 

[Nikosandros]

I use declarations in games such as AD&D and BD&D, but not in 3e or 4e.

 

[frankthedm]

I'm not sure I'd characterize the importance of initiative in 1e/2e as being a problem. Striking first should be extremely important. But I do agree that 3e raised its importance, particularly at high levels when 3+ attacks are commonplace.

Having a high number of attacks is a perverse incentive to lose initiative for melee characters. Getting attacked first means you can now take a full attack, whereas if the character won initiative, they would have had to have been the one to move into melee range.

Unless the character is using ranged weapons and quickdraw, or some sort of cheese to bypass this requirement of full attacking, letting melee foes come to you is often the better option.