Defenders and Monsters that Swallow Whole

[msherman]

Same with things like Shambling Mound or Gelatinous cube (neither of which actually get to attack the monster inside of it, just do routine damage per round).

Why can't a Gelatinous Cube use its Slam attack against a creature which is already Engulfed?

 

[Rechan]

Why can't a Gelatinous Cube use its Slam attack against a creature which is already Engulfed?

They're all ready taking auto-damage; ongoing is even harsher? But, point taken.

I do find it really, really hard to imagine a fighter in the monster's gullet getting an extra attack somehow he knows the monster is attacking someone else. What if the monster shifts?

 

[MarkB]

Seems to me the rules are being changed here for no real benefit.

The defender marks the swallower. If the swallower attacks anyone else and does not include the defender in the attack, the defender's powers that key on the mark go off.

Plain and simple: Swallow a defender and pay the price.

It's not spelled out, but I'd consider it a general rule of triggered actions that the person taking the action must be able to perceive the triggering event. That includes all immediate actions.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Good point! I'm going to have to re-think this.

It still seems wrong to me to penalize a monster for using its special attack on a defender because once it swallows the defender it has no way of attacking the swallowed creature - and for most (all?) the monsters that can swallow characters it their big thing. I can see the counter argument that it's the defender's thing to anoy monsters even when sitting in their gullet.

I have been convinced that by RAW marks don't stop working when swallowed.

Why mmust the monster swallow the defender? No one ever said, that swallowing the defener was the best idea or the only option.

Therefore, I see no reason to penalize the defender further, who is already in a bad position if swallowed.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I can see the counter argument that it's the defender's thing to anoy monsters even when sitting in their gullet.

Hopefully the defender will wise up and stop marking the foe - he's taking lots of damage and is cut off from any healing source...

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Hopefully the defender will wise up and stop marking the foe - he's taking lots of damage and is cut off from any healing source...

If the defender stops marking the creature that swallowed him, how does that reduce the damage he suffers or change the fact that he is cut off from healing/etc. The swallower will only have an easier time attacking the defender's allies.

Is your advice that the swallowed defender should effectively help the monster?

 

[Nail]

It's not spelled out, but I'd consider it a general rule ......

...to be able to change rules I don't like.

There. Fixed that for you.

Getting swallowed sucks. Apparently, getting swallowed also allows the DM to remove class features that might hurt the monster?

I think it's better to go with what's written, and make up "fluff" and "narrative" to explain what happened. It's simply more satisfying to the players, and ultimately makes for a better game. Besides, is it really the DM's job to protect the monsters from injury?

 

[Solodan]

I don't see any problem with marking effects while swallowed. If i swallowed a circular saw, it wouldn't be all that healthy for me either.

Note, however, depending on the intelligence of the creature, it might not swallow a creature that is capable of marking it. Or it might, once its digested, no more marking.

 

[DracoSuave]

Why -wouldn't- a swallowed character still get their class abilities used to their fullest?

Divine Challenge is a divine punishment from the gods, do you think these same gods would go 'Well, he -ate- the paladin, so good enough!' Seriously.

Combat Challenge is the fighter being so rough and tumble he makes attacking others a bad idea. Do you think a fighter, having been swallowed, is going to stop being a jerk? Strangely, I can see such a fighter motivated to be -more- of a jerk in that position. 'OH YOU DID SWALLOW ME, AND NOW I CAN STAB YOUR BELLY FROM THE INSIDE! WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW, DEVOURER!?!'

Same with the Warden, who also just gets bonus attacks when the stuff he is protecting is attacked.

Swordmage's a bit less enabled, but nothing stops him from ignoring the TP of AoA and just attacking for free.

The moral: Many monsters have roles that act as their krytonite, roles that by their nature are more powerful against them. Swallowing monsters tend to be a moment for defenders to shine. This is not a bad thing, this is a good thing.

 

[Rechan]

It's not the marking, so much as the class feature like combat challenge. How the defender knows the monster is making an attack is the issue; he's in its stomach, so why would he get extra attacks?

But, to the point, a swallowed defender is doing his job; he's supposed to make a better target and take the damage for others. And a monster swallowing the defender means that someone more vulnerable didn't get swallowed. He's taking the no doubt worse punishment.

For instance, if a healer gets swallowed, then the healing is useless; line of sight/effect is gone. In fact, that's the monster's best tactic.

Although it occurs to me that this issue is moot, at least as far as the monster I was going to use is concerned; the Devourer takes a target out of play, and they can make no actions.