Defenders that actually defend

[Felon]

My fighter is pretty awesome at actually defending. Come and Get It is an amazing power, since it lets me pull enemies off the squishies and simultaneously marks them.

Come and Get It has been mentioned a few times now. Wouldn't mind hearing more about it. Is it an encounter power? What kind of area does it have?

 

[Turtlejay]

Moreover, as I mentioned in my OP, the fighter and paladin are easy to end run around once they get locked down by the creature(s) they engaged. Other enemies can maneuver around or just sit back and shoot past them.

I have not seen this at all. I played with a super effective fighter in my first long term 4e campaign. He was an Elven Fighter who specialised in spear and shield. This was before there was a ton of feat support for that, but he, through good power choice and tactical maneuvering, was an almost unstoppable wall. I know this because I was a Str Paladin, and I almost never ended up marking things because his mark was 10x better. I was a Defender in the "Scare them so bad that they need to kill you to sleep at night" type, not the good kind.

In a different campaign I switched roles. I played a fighter who used as many multiattack powers as I could to keep things marked and locked down. A post-DP charisma Paladin in that party was the off-tank, and his mark was very tough to ignore. Again, smart power and feat choice meant that even though I was the flashier tank, his mark was the deadlier and more important, and often his overwrote mine on the deadliest target.

My current campaign has a Swordmage. As far as traditional defending goes, they are kind of out there. Teleportation powers and multiattacks (where each attack does not mark) don't fit the mold of the staid defender, but because we have a mostly ranged and pretty mobile party, he is almost always the ready target, and when he isn't he pops next to the offender and whacks them one.

My experience has shown that good feat and power choice can turn you from an off-striker bag of HP's into a truly difficult challenge for any DM, and that is possible with a wide array of classes. Fighters do this naturally, almost without effort, but a well played Defender is not easily ignored. In your DM's case, I'd advise the defenders to boost the punishment phase of their defendery schtick. Better OA's for the fighter, with riders or extra effects. For the Paladin, powers that Sanction and debuff, as well as taking the necessary feats to keep his radiant retribution relevant.

If the DM continues to ignore the Defenders even after they have done this, all he is doing is killing his creeps faster. A fighter that is allowed to constantly make OA's and other extra attacks can approach striker level damage.

I had not considered this a problem, really. . .

Jay

 

[the Jester]

Come and Get It has been mentioned a few times now. Wouldn't mind hearing more about it. Is it an encounter power? What kind of area does it have?

The fighter imc has used this to incredible effect.

I believe it is an encounter power, close burst 3, pull all enemies 2 and then attack 'em all. Good stuff.

I have seen a fighter from 1st to 18th level, as well as a low to mid-paragon level warden and a mid- to high-heroic paladin. The fighter's combat challenge ability to stop enemy movement is, imho, the best defender ability of all.

 

[Stalker0]

I believe it is an encounter power, close burst 3, pull all enemies 2 and then attack 'em all. Good stuff.

Sometimes I think they should have just given this power to the fighter as a 7th level class ability, there is no other power that compares!

 

[keterys]

But if it were a class feature then my barbarian multiclassed into fighter couldn't have it anymore

 

[Infiniti2000]

This is a false dichotomy. The DM's "good reason" is that the effects in question (combat challenge and divine challenge) are inadequate at discouraging the enemies from attacking the squishies.

I simply haven't seen that happen at our low level of play. The fighter was extremely potent when engaged. The paladin's divine challenge damage (5 hp I think) was not insignificant. Bad guys simply can't ignore the effects of the defender. A really good reason, btw, is "the ranger had the unholy relic of our goddess, kill him!" It is not, "the squishies with the low hit points are at the back, ignore the fighter, paladin, and warden and get them!"

In any case, you asked about experience, so that was mine. Apparently, it's also Turtlejay's.

Regarding your end-around, certainly that's possible. But, I wouldn't consider that part of the issue at all. I mean, if the defender can't engage some of the opponents, then why is it his fault he's not defending properly? Sometimes the squishies have to engage as well, and that's typically against enemy artillery or when there are too many skirmishers, brutes, etc. for the defenders to hold off. In other words, that's a non issue.

 

[Felon]

If the DM continues to ignore the Defenders even after they have done this, all he is doing is killing his creeps faster. A fighter that is allowed to constantly make OA's and other extra attacks can approach striker level damage.

I had not considered this a problem, really. . .

I simply haven't seen that happen at our low level of play. The fighter was extremely potent when engaged. The paladin's divine challenge damage (5 hp I think) was not insignificant. Bad guys simply can't ignore the effects of the defender.

I'm not sure what the deal with all of the incredulity. The fighter's combat challenge can hose the bad guys up, but all it takes is a 4-square wide passage to bypass oppies. Divine challenge is just a weak deterrent (5 points of damage can't be ignored?).

A really good reason, btw, is "the ranger had the unholy relic of our goddess, kill him!" It is not, "the squishies with the low hit points are at the back, ignore the fighter, paladin, and warden and get them!"

In any case, you asked about experience, so that was mine. Apparently, it's also Turtlejay's.

Regarding your end-around, certainly that's possible. But, I wouldn't consider that part of the issue at all. I mean, if the defender can't engage some of the opponents, then why is it his fault he's not defending properly? Sometimes the squishies have to engage as well, and that's typically against enemy artillery or when there are too many skirmishers, brutes, etc. for the defenders to hold off. In other words, that's a non issue.

Your tone is kind of defensive. Since this is a thread about defenders, does that qualify as irony? Suffice to say, the definition of a "good reason" is pretty subjective.

And this is not a discussion about "blaming" the defender, but rather finding some strategies to let him excel at his job. Squishies are squishies because absorbing attacks is not their strong suit. If the defenders have some deeper strategies for keeping heat away from them, I'd love to hear how. Dismissing the entire discussion as "moot" and "non-issue" isn't exactly a constructive contribution.

 

[Turtlejay]

I'm not sure what the deal with all of the incredulity. The fighter's combat challenge can hose the bad guys up, but all it takes is a 4-square wide passage to bypass oppies. Divine challenge is just a weak deterrent (5 points of damage can't be ignored?).

Because that assumes that everyone is standing still. So something takes the extra movement to skirt the fighter. On his next turn, the fighter is right there, marking, and hopefully getting a hit on his OA to keep the enemy there. Granted, a fighter has the strongest mark, so a Paladin can't do that. Instead, the Paladin (Swordmage, Warden, etc) has other tools to compensate. The Paladin's mark goes off whether he hits or misses, so yeah, you can ignore him, but you just got a permanent -2 to attacks and ongoing 5 radiant, no save. Lay hands or other class abilities mitigate any damage (sorry I let him by buddy, heres some HP's) like in the case of the Shielding swordmage where it simply prevents a portion of the damage from ever occuring.

I think the point I am making that is getting lost is this: you can ignore the defenders all you want, but that will only make you die faster.

The thread title is "Defenders that actually defend" and for that you need to look at the whole class, not just the mark. For non-fighter defenders, they have abilities that help them defend *beyond* the mark.

Jay

 

[Felon]

The fighter imc has used this to incredible effect.

I believe it is an encounter power, close burst 3, pull all enemies 2 and then attack 'em all. Good stuff.

I have seen a fighter from 1st to 18th level, as well as a low to mid-paragon level warden and a mid- to high-heroic paladin. The fighter's combat challenge ability to stop enemy movement is, imho, the best defender ability of all.

Sometimes I think they should have just given this power to the fighter as a 7th level class ability, there is no other power that compares!

I definitely gotta check into this power. Do paladins have an analogue?

 

[Felon]

Because that assumes that everyone is standing still. So something takes the extra movement to skirt the fighter. On his next turn, the fighter is right there, marking, and hopefully getting a hit on his OA to keep the enemy there.

So, what happens when a soldier engages the tank and they're in mutual lockdown? All the other monsters skirt the tank.

The thread title is "Defenders that actually defend" and for that you need to look at the whole class, not just the mark. For non-fighter defenders, they have abilities that help them defend *beyond* the mark.

Well....yeah. Exactly. That's why I'm trying to get past this point where we're talking about combat/divine challenge like they cover all the bases.