Defenders that actually defend

[KarinsDad]

We do have one issue in our game though.

We have a Fighter and a Aegis of Assault Swordmage.

So, they often attack the same foe and often cannot decide whether they should have the Fighter's mark or the Swordmage's mark on the foe.

Any suggestions for this?

I was going to suggest to the Fighter to always take precedence in groups of foes since the Fighter sometimes marks more than one foe per attack, but I'm not sure if this is best. The player of the Fighter (my wife) is also a bit timid when it comes to marking since she doesn't want to overrule the player of the Swordmage.

Thoughts?

 

[fba827]

We do have one issue in our game though.

(snip)

Thoughts?

The swordmage has more control over who it marks. Also, the swordmage one (assault) puts in teleportation so it need not be next to you to have it trigger.
As such, I'd say the fighter should be the one to mark the 'main bad guy' and the swordmage should be marking all the little guys so that they don't hinder the other PCs who are trying to clear them out (because it can markthem as it continues fighting someone else and if triggered, the swordmage pops over there; the fighter doesn't have that luxury. it has to be next to the target to mark and use the trigger.)

Just my opinion anyway. Your experience and individual party tactics/makeup will of course cause your own experience.

 

[Stalker0]

We do have one issue in our game though.

We have a Fighter and a Aegis of Assault Swordmage.

So, they often attack the same foe and often cannot decide whether they should have the Fighter's mark or the Swordmage's mark on the foe.

Any suggestions for this?

I was going to suggest to the Fighter to always take precedence in groups of foes since the Fighter sometimes marks more than one foe per attack, but I'm not sure if this is best. The player of the Fighter (my wife) is also a bit timid when it comes to marking since she doesn't want to overrule the player of the Swordmage.

Thoughts?

In this situation, I would go fighter or Swordmage. The fighter's mark is better in close combat. What I would suggest to the swordmage is to mark someone else, then run over and work with the fighter. If the monster triggers the swordmage's mark, he can choose to teleport over to the new monster if things are going badly.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Why exactly is the DM playing the AC numbers (i.e. competing as if all monsters had Int 20+) as opposed to playing the game for the enjoyment of everyone at the table?

Are you suggesting that the it takes an int of 20+ to go after squishy-looking targets? Or to hit the guy in heavy armor with ref-targeting spells?

My general attitude is that if it has mechanical effect, then it has narrative effect. So those monsters that defend well when adjacent? When they stand alongside each other, they're obviously in formation, and when you attack them, they're obviously defending each other.

That monster with the fighter's marking ability? He marks you and he's obviously waiting to punish any move you make.

I agree: the PCs don't know everything. In general, however, they will find out most things pretty quickly.

Unless of course you intend to run a buffy-style campaign or encounter (ie - PCs meet monsters and get thrashed and withdraw. PCs research foe. PCs return with new tactics/items/rituals and win the day). Which is fine of course, but it's not the default that we're discussing here.

 

[Cadfan]

Our group seems to do fine.

We have a two handed weapon talent fighter with a mordenkrad and the kensei paragon path. He hits very, very hard, and is very accurate. He averages somewhere over 20 damage per hit. Unfortunately for him his AC is terrible, but this means that he's a very popular target for monsters. That's really all he needs to get the job done- monsters can attack him, or attack someone with similar AC and get penalized with a +21 v ac, 2d6+13 brutal 1 attack.

Our paladin, by contrast, has a sky high AC. I forget what it is exactly, but its very, very high. Meanwhile her divine challenge does I think 12 damage, and she has the warding dragonmark. Monsters sometimes ignore her, but an automatic 12 damage is pretty serious, and the -3 they take to attack rolls is noticeable. She likes to use that paladin at will that penalizes attack rolls by 2, so sometimes things are even more grim. And she's selected a number of powers and items that let her absorb or retaliate against enemies who harm nearby allies, even if they're not marked.

So I guess I haven't really seen a problem. Monsters could ignore the defenders, but the consequences for doing so are pretty dire.

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

I'm involved mostly with LFR games, on both sides of the screen, and as a DM, nothing irks me more than staring down the business end of a Warden (Dareus' Dwarf Warden Torman in particular). I can run two or three guys past a Fighter in a round and at least one will get through unhit. It may cost me another action to get the other enemies past, but I can do it. I can direct Brutes at the Paladin or Swordmage to absorb damage, but there is almost nothing I can do to stop that Warden from just rampaging across the field. Three things specifically:

1) Marking mid-charge: He has a ridiculously high AC so he'll charge right through groups of monsters, watching the OAs bounce off of him and then mark three or four mid-movement. Sure it's only a one-round mark but he's got several pegged.

2) Control over damage: I ignored the mark and smacked a squishie. Warden's Grasp goes off (no roll, mind you) and now I can't get out. To me, this is far worse than the Paladin's divine challenge triggering. Loss of HPs don't change anything until the monster is dead. Sometimes it even helps since I get to bust out Bloodied effects. But if I can't shift and am slowed? Nowhere to run. That guy's about to get surrounded and curb-stomped by Controllers and Strikers. Plus the Warden is far enough away that he's going to Charge me again, picking up more marks on the way over.

3) Reach weapons: Sure, a Fighter could take a reach weapon, but he's not going to get to use that reach for an opp attack in Heroic Tier. That level 1 Warden is going to deliver Warden's Fury once per round from 2 squares away out of the box and once again, the enemy who is now granting combat advantage immediately becomes Public Enemy #1 for the round.

Basically, if I know he's coming, I have to plan the encounter around how to keep him from choosing my strategy for me. That being said, he's worthless against Solos and even Elites to some extent. I have to deal with the Paladin and Swordmage there - particularly the Shielding Swordmage.

 

[Felon]

Btw, do the rules address whether or not a fighter can choose not to mark a foe it attacks (and thus override a previous mark)?

 

[Nightson]

Btw, do the rules address whether or not a fighter can choose not to mark a foe it attacks (and thus override a previous mark)?

Yes, it says you can choose right in the description of combat challenge.

 

[Dan'L]

Btw, do the rules address whether or not a fighter can choose not to mark a foe it attacks (and thus override a previous mark)?

Yep. PHB p. 76, in the first paragraph under "Combat Challenge":

Every time you attack and ememy, whether the attack hits or misses, YOU CAN CHOOSE to mark the target.

-Dan'L

 

[Rothe_]

Do we have strikers that kill an enemy with one hit?
No.

Do we need defenders who can lock down all the monsters in the encounter?
No.

Defenders work fine. They can hold back around 2 enemies and occasionally a few more with powers. That is how it is supposed to work.

Also, the DM has no obligation to take OA's with monsters or to always attack the paladin. The mark effect -2 to hit is already plenty and often it makes the defender into the best target for the marked monster. Sometimes it does not, but it still helps the allies a lot. The extra damage from attacks or divine challenge/sanction are pretty good bonus damage. Sanction always hits, so it should deal around half damage compared to the fighters attack - in practice it does not quite do so much, but it has some other advantages (like being able to cause damage to several enemies, instead of having a limit of one immediate action).