D&D General Defining "New School" Play (+)

Na, I think you are hung up on literal age. Considering they are making brand new old school games as we speak, doesnt change the fact that there are aspects that are clearly new school even if they are decades old.
So what if they are also making brand new old school games? That doesn't change the fact that there are many games with newer designs and playstyles than what you call "new school". What are those then? "Even newer school"? It's just farcical.
 

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As Reynard notes, its not off to note that a rather big chunk of people who use "Old School" are really heavily leaning into the first few editions of D&D and often nothing much else at all. Its pretty clear they consider AD&D2e and almost any non-D&D game not Old School.
There are serious problems with that definition though. It smells of weirdly groomed beards and IPAs.
 

So what if they are also making brand new old school games? That doesn't change the fact that there are many games with newer designs and playstyles than what you call "new school". What are those then? "Even newer school"? It's just farcical.
New school
 

3e ended the Old School. And with so many games emulating whatever D&D does, it's hard to say who else can define a "school" besides D&D. So New School must be the new path of D&D, which has the following Easy Mode features:
  • Life after 0 HP.
  • Minimization of Save or Die.
  • Skill checks and skill challenges substituting for player skill.
  • Be-whatever-you-want races and classes.
  • Well-above-average ability scores.
  • (More) Player-facing rules with concrete outcomes (like "your opponent slides one square away").
I really think that there are 2 eras after the Old School.

Old School
  • Death at 0 HP.
  • Save or Die.
  • Player skill.
  • Traditional races and classes.
  • Average ability scores unless you roll good
  • Few Player-facing rules with concrete outcomes

Silver Age
  • A little Life after 0 HP (-10 HP or 3 Death saves per Day)
  • Minimization of Save or Die (Must fail 2 saves or Cril Fail)
  • Skill checks and skill challenges substituting for player skill.
  • Be-whatever-you-want races and classes but they are lower tier due to .
  • Slightly above-average ability scores.
  • A lot of Player-facing rules with concrete outcomes.

New School
  • A lot of Life after 0 HP.
  • No Save or Die.
  • Skill checks and skill challenges substituting for player skill.
  • Be-whatever-you-want races and classes.
  • Well-above-average ability scores.
  • Many Player-facing rules with concrete outcomes (like "your opponent slides one square away"). Slight structure for missing rules (Skill checks, Saving throws)
 


So, anything from roughly the mid-80 and beyond regardless of play style? You realize that that's utterly meaningless.
Not what I would consider "new school." I, personally, would not consider anything before 3e "new school." That doesn't necessarily mean everything that came before is axiomatically "old school," nor that the ideas that went into "new school" arrived fully formed in 2001 or later.

But there's a very real sense in which a continuity of culture-of-play lasted through 1e and 2e, but which 3e diverged from, despite its designers' intent. (Seriously, they really wanted to design "2e but balanced and refocused." Instead...well. I think the flaws of 3e speak for themselves.) The seeds of "new school" certainly appeared as early as Dragonlance, which certainly would be mid-80s, I don't think anyone really questions that. But those seeds took time to take root, sprout, and flower--and the handover to WotC is a pretty clear break in a variety of ways.

It's not for nothing that the active interest in making some kind of "OSR" occurred shortly after 3e appeared--by 2004 or 2005 at the absolute latest. The OGL was certainly part of it, but the feeling of disconnection was surely part of it too. "Current D&D is different from what I played and I want to bring back what I played" is pretty much the raison d'être of OSR gaming. Just because that "current D&D is different" process took the form of punctuated evolution, rather than a singular dramatic revolution, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
 

There is no sharp dividing line that separates when OS becomes NS. Its not like you can say "3e is when D&D became NS" because thats not remotely true. 3e moved the needle along (and I feel for the first time, the rules began to reflect NS elements in D&D worlds and adventures that had existed prior, but were at odds with AD&Ds OS roots) but there is no clear line where you have completely abandoned one for the other.
I do think that there is a sharp dividing line as "Old School" and "New School" was first defined or coined: i.e., TSR D&Ds vs. WotC D&Ds. "New School D&D" was indeed initially defined as 3e D&D and onwards. That is generally how I see "Old School" vs. "New School," in a more technical sense of publishing eras. And dare I say it, "New School" vs. "Old School" was something of a tacit agreement with the idea of "system matters," as some gamers who wanted to keep playing TSR era games weren't connecting with 3e as a game system. But as you say, in some senses, the strands of "New School" play culture were already present in the big tent play culture of TSR D&D.

However...
I think you are placing it too late. You are conflating the change of system with the change of playstyle, but the change of playstyle came much earlier and grognards rejected it then, too.
Also, I'm not an expert,but the modern OSR doesn't seem to look a lot like the 2004 OSR. I can but the argument that the modern OSR is mostly a reaction to 5E using the language of the original OSR.
.... one of the problems in this thread involves unclear terms being used. Some people are conflating Old School D&D with OSR, especially the later strands of it, namely philosophical OSR. (Not claiming that @Reynard is doing this, but his posts highlight topic points where vagueness can lead to confusion.)

Old School D&D - TSR-era D&Ds: Oe-2e D&D, B/X, BECMI, etc.

New School D&D - WotC-era D&Ds: 3e-5e D&D+, but also PF1-2, etc.

Old School Revolution/Renaissance:*
  • Wave 1 - Retro Clones: originally a way to republish and continue playing TSR D&Ds under the OGL
  • Wave 2 - Philsophical OSR: a (somewhat revisionist) strand of OSR influenced by the Forge and interested in the sort of philosophical underpinnings of old school games, TSR D&D compatible but increasingly TSR D&D-adjacent
  • Wave 3 - NuSR/NSR:** TSR incompatible games, but adhere to OSR principles

The Hickman Revolution, for example, arguably became something of a convenient scapegoat or rallying cry for Wave 2 and Wave 3 OSR. The Hickman Revolution didn't really matter for Wave 1, who were mostly interested in playing older editions, but it was a sore point for those who developed the OSR Principles. Again, there was undoubtedly influence in Wave 2-3 OSR from the Forge, namely in this case a certain hostility to GM authored story, linearity, and force. (The Forge was complaining about similar things around the same time in regards to Vampire the Masquerade.)

* There are more waves and strands than this, as read here, but this is more of a convenience.
** Confusingly, there were also attempts to use "New School Renaissance" (NSR) as the name for a movement when there was a surge of renewed interest in 4e D&D 🤷‍♂️

There are serious problems with that definition though. It smells of weirdly groomed beards and IPAs.
To speak more directly to this point, when you keep in mind what I discuss above, there are really two sense of when "New School" starts:
(1) WotC era D&D, as per "TSR Retroclone-inclined OSR" - the games are now not as compatible as TSR D&Ds were with each other
(2) Hickman Revolution and the emerging dominance of "Trad play culture," as per "Philosophical OSR."

We could even have two timeline to show periods when these senses of Old/New School overlap and contrast.
 
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So New School is roughly 24 years old. For a 50y old game, that New school is pretty old. :D

3e, 4e and 5e all play very different. 5e feels more like mix of 2e and 3e. Maybe we need term Old New School and New New School?
 


As a line in the sand, "new school" simply means 3e onward, and old school pre-3e. 3e introduced a systematization with distinct mechanics, including standardized ability bonuses, level advancement, and so on. That said.

It is possible to talk about a "proto new school", namely characteristics that exist during old school but become guiding principles for 3e systematization.

I would probably characterize the Druid class as "proto". It is a specific kind of Cleric, that utilizes mechanics to actualize a distinctive flavor. The difference between Druid and other kinds of Cleric is mechanical. It is potentially capable of individuating into its own distinct class. It is remarkable because the Druid exists since Original D&D, 0e even before 1e. Yet this becomes a guiding principle for many classes of 3e. Similar to how Druid distinguishes from Cleric, mechanically, 3e Sorcerer distinguishes from Wizard, mechanically. Then Warlock, Psion, etcetera. Not to many diverse prestige classes.
 

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