Deities and Portfolios

[Roman]

One thing that has ALWAYS bugged me is Death being evil. EVERYTHING has to die. Heck, if things don't die, you get Undead, which are Evil. A N God of Death(and balance, etc etc) works very very well, and throws out a very large amount of interesting ideas that the PCs in my campaigns have enjoyed.

Right, but you could make the same argument about say a 'God of disease' (diseases are part of the natural order and kill off weak individuals making the species as a whole stronger) and the same argument could be made about say a 'God of Destruction' (destruction enables change - if nothing was ever destroyed, world would soon become static), 'God of Pain' (pain induces you to avoid things that would be detrimental to your survival and without pain you will never be able to experience and appretiate pleasure) and indeed about any just about any other Gods that deal with phenonema that also exist in real life. That's because in the real world good and evil are to a large degree subjective (Ok, some might disagree with this statement...) and often not at all clearcut.

When deciding what is evil and what is not when creating a pantheon, I think a good guideline should be the question: "Would I want it to happen to me in the near future?" If the answer is no, than it often makes for a decent evil portfolio in terms of the D&D game even if it is not strictly evil in real life (I don't think anything is strictly evil in real life...).

Besides, who is to say that evil is not integral and necessary to the functioning of the universe whatever the goody-two-shoes say? There are various philosophies of balance claim say just that.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

...maybe I've just read too much Discworld. Death is most definitely N there. Of course, when I think of Death I probably wouldn't have much else in his portfolio beyond that(not tieing in things like murder, hatred etc). Actually, I've found the Kelemvor from FR is about what I'd like to see in a God of the Dead.

IMO, a God of Death and the Dead should NOT like Undead, as they're essentially going against everything the God stands for...etc etc etc

 

[Roman]

...maybe I've just read too much Discworld. Death is most definitely N there. Of course, when I think of Death I probably wouldn't have much else in his portfolio beyond that(not tieing in things like murder, hatred etc). Actually, I've found the Kelemvor from FR is about what I'd like to see in a God of the Dead.

There is nothing wrong with your interpretation, I am just trying to point out that there is another perspective on that and that even evil can perform a useful function (perhaps hence the term 'necessary evil'). Also, you are correct that if death was neutral it would be better to untie it from things like murder and so on, but since I have so few deities, I am trying to create over-arching portfolios for them. Hence, I cannot 'afford' to have any God with just the death portfolio (or any single other portfolio), but have to tie in related portfolios too into the 'uberportfolio' for the God. Besides, I am probably going to take up one of the above suggestions and every God will have one aspect of a different alignment - so the God of Death will have an aspect that is not evil.

IMO, a God of Death and the Dead should NOT like Undead, as they're essentially going against everything the God stands for...etc etc etc

I definitely see what you are saying, but it too is subject to the interpretation of the God of Death in question - perhaps he could abhor undeath as against what he stand for or perhaps he could view existence after death (undeath) as a tribute to himself. I have not yet decided whether the God of Death on the list should or should not like Undead. I am toying with the idea of the God of Perversion/Corruption being the champion of undead. Basically, I am considering making the God of Perversion have a finger in each of the portfolios of the 12 High Gods in a corrupting manner (corrupt death, for example, could be undeath, etc....) but I am not yet certain that that is what I will do.

 

[Li Shenron]

One thing that has ALWAYS bugged me is Death being evil. EVERYTHING has to die. Heck, if things don't die, you get Undead, which are Evil. A N God of Death(and balance, etc etc) works very very well, and throws out a very large amount of interesting ideas that the PCs in my campaigns have enjoyed.

Not always.

In Forgotten Realms the god of death is Kelemvor (LN), who makes judgement to the deceased. He's rather referred as "god of the dead" because it doesn't pursue the death of living beings - if he was, it would definitely sound evil.

In Greyhawk there's NE Nerull who basically considers life like a disease that needs to be cured to restore the normality of being dead (if you live 100 years, you're still dead for eternity-100y so death is the normality...). But there's also WeeJas who is a goddess of death & knowledge and is LN.

 

[Roman]

Not always.

In Forgotten Realms the god of death is Kelemvor (LN), who makes judgement to the deceased. He's rather referred as "god of the dead" because it doesn't pursue the death of living beings - if he was, it would definitely sound evil.

In Greyhawk there's NE Nerull who basically considers life like a disease that needs to be cured to restore the normality of being dead (if you live 100 years, you're still dead for eternity-100y so death is the normality...). But there's also WeeJas who is a goddess of death & knowledge and is LN.

True, but making the God of Death evil works fine too, I think.

BTW: What do you think of the list of 12 + 1 Gods that I made using a lot of deities you suggested + changing some and adding some? Is anything important still missing?

 

[Li Shenron]

True, but making the God of Death evil works fine too, I think.

BTW: What do you think of the list of 12 + 1 Gods that I made using a lot of deities you suggested + changing some and adding some? Is anything important still missing?

I think that would work pretty well. You're still going to have minor gods or demigods for smaller portfolios, right?

 

[Roman]

I think that would work pretty well.

Excellent - and thanks for your extensive help in the creation process.

You're still going to have minor gods or demigods for smaller portfolios, right?

Hmm, that's a good question. Is there anything missing that is not somehow subsumed in the 12 + 1 High Gods that would make for good minor gods or demigods?

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

One thing that has ALWAYS bugged me is Death being evil. EVERYTHING has to die. Heck, if things don't die, you get Undead, which are Evil. A N God of Death(and balance, etc etc) works very very well, and throws out a very large amount of interesting ideas that the PCs in my campaigns have enjoyed.

This is one of the reasons I took alignment away from ALL of my Gods.

There are good and evil aspects of pretty much every thing in a portfolio. Love can be the pure platonic love of two friends, or the corrupt and evil love of a stalker for his victim. War can be the good war against the Nazis or the evil war perpetrated by them. Death and disease are in and of themselves not evil, but someone willing them on the world would definitely be. So the portfolios have to transcend any concept of fundamental morality - they have to be closer to platonic ideals, representing every possible form of those ideals. So while I have a god of death reflection and revenge, he can manifest in multiple guises to different worshippers - and all are valid, powerful, spell granting deities. The whole corruption of a religion is a theme I've always enjoyed.

Roman - like the 12 gods... couple of thoughts
1) I'd suggest moving the darkness portfolio over to your stealth/thief god - it seems more part of that theme than the disease/suffering god that currently has it.
2) As you have 12 gods have you considered associating them with months. I've done this and hey presto - instant calendar. Plus you'll probably find specific times of the year fit well with certain gods - disease toward the end of winter, war at the height of summer, agriculture at harvest time.

 

[Li Shenron]

Hmm, that's a good question. Is there anything missing that is not somehow subsumed in the 12 + 1 High Gods that would make for good minor gods or demigods?

I just thought you mentioned earlier that you might have some, but you don't really need them. If there's any reason to cover something more, you can easily add it to one of the existing deities.

 

[Roman]

This is one of the reasons I took alignment away from ALL of my Gods.

Well, alignment in my games is generally not very strict anyway... and I will definitely give each god an aspect of the opposite alignment as you suggested in your original post. The alignment of the Gods I have given could better be considered as the usual perception of the God in question. Yes, in fact now that I read the responses and think about it, that will be the best way to go - each God will have an alignment based on how he or she is most often perceived. Imagine the PCs' surprise when they find out that the God of Destruction et al whose church they have been fighting for years actally plays a fundamental and irreplacable role in the world...

There are good and evil aspects of pretty much every thing in a portfolio.

Alternatively, we can even say that good and evil do not really exist and are subjective and relative.

The whole corruption of a religion is a theme I've always enjoyed.

Oh yes, I completely agree. Makes for a great plot-tool too.

Roman - like the 12 gods... couple of thoughts
1) I'd suggest moving the darkness portfolio over to your stealth/thief god - it seems more part of that theme than the disease/suffering god that currently has it.

Point taken - it definitely makes more sense there as you say.


2) As you have 12 gods have you considered associating them with months. I've done this and hey presto - instant calendar. Plus you'll probably find specific times of the year fit well with certain gods - disease toward the end of winter, war at the height of summer, agriculture at harvest time.[/QUOTE]

A wonderful idea! And the 13th God could be special - perhaps being strongest during a 13th month that is a transition month happening once per several decades.