CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
AmerginLiath said:
And humans have an equally abyssmal Dex.
Actually, not all dragons have a racial +0 Dex - some (OA, IIRC) have above-average scores.
Deities & Demigods continued
- Thread starter Upper_Krust
- Start date
And humans have an equally abyssmal Dex.
Actually, not all dragons have a racial +0 Dex - some (OA, IIRC) have above-average scores.
Killer Shrike
First Post
I havent had time to read thru everyones posts on this subject, so forgive me if Im kicking a dead horse...
Ive been reading thru the book topically, rather than attacking it cover to cover. Ive basically been looking at individual gods that catch my attention and then try to decipher all of thier capabilities.
Tonight I sat down to actually make a god (Kelanan) not detailed in the book but which plays a role in my campaign.
The book is completely lacking on how to actually do this. Most significantly lacking is any explanation of how to calculate attributes for a deity. This is a glaring ommision if Im not just missing it. How did Thor get a Str 92 for example?
Another baffling detail: Why are so many gods Clerics? Are they Clerics of themselves? Seems a bit silly. Also, looking at the write up on Iuz using the D&DG rules in Dragon 294, Iuz is a 20th lvl Cleric, 10th lvl Assassin? Who was he a cleric of prior to ascending to godhood? Grazz't? Wouldnt he have been more likely a Fighter/Rogue/Assassin? Also, on the subject of Iuz; his greatest opponent is Cuthbert, who used to be a demigod peer of Iuz's. Somehow in the last 30 or 40 years, Cuthbert has shot up the charts to a high Intermediate god, despite a total lack of rules detailing how this might be accomplished. I guess Cuthbert was on a fast-track career path. Or maybe Iuz is just an underachiever.
And speaking of Cuthbert, If a mortal ascends to diety status, does he/she get 20 Outsider HD tacked on? Cuthbert has it, and he is an ascended mortal (IIRC old material stated he was a priest of Pelor--thats where the 'Saint' bit comes from); also IIRC old material also stated that Obad-Hai was originally a priest of Beory, although I cant remember the source of that memory.
Looking at some of the individual gods turns up some more head scratchers. For example, it looks like Heironeous would just kick the snot out of his theoretically equal brother Hextor. Sure Hextor gets something like 19 attacks, but he cant hit Sir Lightning Bolt with most of them, where as Heironeous is going to connect with his top two attacks every time, his 3rd 75% of the time, and his last 50 of the time. If Hextor uses his Superior Expertise to even the odds his chance of hitting goes out the window, where as Heironeous can match the Sup. Expertise and use his +5 Defending weapon to further offset the difference. The only thing Heironeous really has to worry about is a crit and good dmg roll from Hextor's Unholy Flail combined with Annihilating Strike. Sure, Hextor has more feats, but most of them wont help him vs Heironeous.
And speaking of Heironeous, why do his ability scores add up to 185 while Hextor's add up to 180? both gods have the same number of levels, the same divine rank. Am I missing something?
Something else strange; some of the Salient Abiliies list a domain as a prerequisite. One thing Im not clear on: does a diety have to have the domain via taking levels as a Cleric, or does the diety just have to give access to the domain? To further confuse the issu, why does Kord have Divine Battle Mastery when he has no levels of Cleric and does not give access to the War domain?
All in all I am happy with the book, but just wish it was more specific about how to create gods and how to ascend mortals to god status. Further, I really think the design team should have bit the bullet and used the Epic Level rules; it doesnt get more epic than the gods. I understand that the design methodology is to make each product a stand alone, but in this particular case, D&DG should have been released as an Epic Level Accesory. It would have made more sense to include the information on how to Ascend the divine ranks in the Epic Level book, and then detail specific dieties in D&DG. IMHO of course....
Ive been reading thru the book topically, rather than attacking it cover to cover. Ive basically been looking at individual gods that catch my attention and then try to decipher all of thier capabilities.
Tonight I sat down to actually make a god (Kelanan) not detailed in the book but which plays a role in my campaign.
The book is completely lacking on how to actually do this. Most significantly lacking is any explanation of how to calculate attributes for a deity. This is a glaring ommision if Im not just missing it. How did Thor get a Str 92 for example?
Another baffling detail: Why are so many gods Clerics? Are they Clerics of themselves? Seems a bit silly. Also, looking at the write up on Iuz using the D&DG rules in Dragon 294, Iuz is a 20th lvl Cleric, 10th lvl Assassin? Who was he a cleric of prior to ascending to godhood? Grazz't? Wouldnt he have been more likely a Fighter/Rogue/Assassin? Also, on the subject of Iuz; his greatest opponent is Cuthbert, who used to be a demigod peer of Iuz's. Somehow in the last 30 or 40 years, Cuthbert has shot up the charts to a high Intermediate god, despite a total lack of rules detailing how this might be accomplished. I guess Cuthbert was on a fast-track career path. Or maybe Iuz is just an underachiever.
And speaking of Cuthbert, If a mortal ascends to diety status, does he/she get 20 Outsider HD tacked on? Cuthbert has it, and he is an ascended mortal (IIRC old material stated he was a priest of Pelor--thats where the 'Saint' bit comes from); also IIRC old material also stated that Obad-Hai was originally a priest of Beory, although I cant remember the source of that memory.
Looking at some of the individual gods turns up some more head scratchers. For example, it looks like Heironeous would just kick the snot out of his theoretically equal brother Hextor. Sure Hextor gets something like 19 attacks, but he cant hit Sir Lightning Bolt with most of them, where as Heironeous is going to connect with his top two attacks every time, his 3rd 75% of the time, and his last 50 of the time. If Hextor uses his Superior Expertise to even the odds his chance of hitting goes out the window, where as Heironeous can match the Sup. Expertise and use his +5 Defending weapon to further offset the difference. The only thing Heironeous really has to worry about is a crit and good dmg roll from Hextor's Unholy Flail combined with Annihilating Strike. Sure, Hextor has more feats, but most of them wont help him vs Heironeous.
And speaking of Heironeous, why do his ability scores add up to 185 while Hextor's add up to 180? both gods have the same number of levels, the same divine rank. Am I missing something?
Something else strange; some of the Salient Abiliies list a domain as a prerequisite. One thing Im not clear on: does a diety have to have the domain via taking levels as a Cleric, or does the diety just have to give access to the domain? To further confuse the issu, why does Kord have Divine Battle Mastery when he has no levels of Cleric and does not give access to the War domain?
All in all I am happy with the book, but just wish it was more specific about how to create gods and how to ascend mortals to god status. Further, I really think the design team should have bit the bullet and used the Epic Level rules; it doesnt get more epic than the gods. I understand that the design methodology is to make each product a stand alone, but in this particular case, D&DG should have been released as an Epic Level Accesory. It would have made more sense to include the information on how to Ascend the divine ranks in the Epic Level book, and then detail specific dieties in D&DG. IMHO of course....
FireLance
Legend
Killer Shrike said:
It's mentioned in the text that Thor has a belt that doubles his Strength. Presumably, this means his base Strength is 46.
My take on this is that there are two paths for divine ascension. One is to ascend directly to godhood. This is quicker, but you don't get the outsider HD (e.g. Vecna, Imhotep). The other is to become a petitioner (after dying, presumably) and get promoted up the celestial or fiendish heirarchy. This is longer and more dangerous (a 20+ level mortal still starts out as a 1 HD outsider), but after you're done you get the outsider HD.
I think the deity just has to give access to the domain. I've noticed that not all the deity statistics are technically correct according to the rules. Presumably, there should be paragraphs in all of these examples saying something like "Deity X has access to ability Y even though it is normally not possible according to the rules", but they all got cut due to space constraints.
Killer Shrike
First Post
FireLance said:
Doh...yeah he had the belt in the mythology too; heck, even the Marvel Comics Thor trotted out the belt a few times.
That still begs the question: how did he get a 46 Strength.
As an aside, Thor's write up mentions that he is the strongest of the Asgardian gods, and mentions his son Magni in the same block of text. This strikes me as odd because in the myths, Magni was the strongest Asgardian god. Oh well...if I were to use the Asgardian pantheon, which Im not planning to, I would probably just use Kord for Magni. I cant remember if Magni was stronger than Thor with the belt on though.....
Are you getting this from somewhere in the book or just deducing it?
Check out Iuz and Cuthbert. Both were mortals, both have 20HD as Outsiders.
Under Cuthbert's entry it says he may have been mortal, on page 12 it says he was mortal (How the Pantheon Came to Be sidebar). Under his entry, the writer gets dodgy and uses the old 'long ago; unknown origin' sidestep, but its been established in older material IIRC that he was indeed a mortal (but of course he was also LG and Pholtus was primarily LN rather than vice versa, but things change I guess).
This is what I figured too, but a cursory scan didnt reveal any clear cut example. It would have been nice if the writers spelled it out in the preReqs explanation at the beginning of the Salient Abilities.
I've noticed that not all the deity statistics are technically correct according to the rules. Presumably, there should be paragraphs in all of these examples saying something like "Deity X has access to ability Y even though it is normally not possible according to the rules", but they all got cut due to space constraints.
I think the deity just has to give access to the domain. I've noticed that not all the deity statistics are technically correct according to the rules. Presumably, there should be paragraphs in all of these examples saying something like "Deity X has access to ability Y even though it is normally not possible according to the rules", but they all got cut due to space constraints.
Ditto
I suppose expecting the designers to follow thier own rules was too much to ask for. What's your opinion on the Heironeous/Hextor mismatch?codewarriorpro
First Post
1/2 Celestial Character Ascension
Hello,
Just wondering what happens when a 1/2 celestial character becomes a hero-deity (Divine Rank 0). Would this god get the 20HD for outsiders. The character is considered an "outsider" with the 1/2 celestial template.
Hello,
Just wondering what happens when a 1/2 celestial character becomes a hero-deity (Divine Rank 0). Would this god get the 20HD for outsiders. The character is considered an "outsider" with the 1/2 celestial template.
Heretic Apostate
First Post
Re: 1/2 Celestial Character Ascension
The question is (and I don't have my books with me, sorry), does 1/2 celestial turn you into an outsider or a "native" outsider? A native outsider has all the benefits and penalties from being an outsider, but since you're native to the material plane, you can be brought back from the dead. (20th-level monks become native outsiders, for instance.)
So there might be a difference.
codewarriorpro said:
The question is (and I don't have my books with me, sorry), does 1/2 celestial turn you into an outsider or a "native" outsider? A native outsider has all the benefits and penalties from being an outsider, but since you're native to the material plane, you can be brought back from the dead. (20th-level monks become native outsiders, for instance.)
So there might be a difference.
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Well as an aside Anagl, Vangal can do this EVEN though he uses his axes (they both have to hit/critical to do shatter soul) so I think it's pretty safe to say that even St. Cuthbert wouldn't be immune to this. Still I'd probably make it that anyone hit by Vangal's axes is affected by Annhilating strike/Shatter Soul.
FireLance
Legend
Killer Shrike said:
I should have made myself clearer - it's not in the book, just my own explanation of why some acsended mortals have 20 Outsider HD and others do not.
Whenever there's an apparent mismatch between powers of Good and powers of Evil that have been locked in a stalemate, I'd trot out one of the following (maybe contradictory) explanations:
1. When Good is apparently more powerful than Evil, the forces of Evil manage to be a credible threat because they are less constrained by ethics and can resort to all manner of underhanded tricks.
2. When Evil is apparently more powerful than Good, the forces of Good are united and co-operate with each other, while the forces of Evil are divided and spend as much effort fighting with each other as they do with the Good side.
You may be able to come up with more possible explanations for both cases.
Last edited:
FireLance
Legend
Re: 1/2 Celestial Character Ascension
I haven't been able to find explicit rules for divine ascension, so I intend to use the following guidelines:
1. "True" deities, who are divine from birth or creation, start with 20 Outsider HD.
2. Mortals (including undead, dragons, magical beasts, etc.) who go straight to divinity do not get additional Outsider HD.
3. Mortals who die become petitioners and lose their previous race HD and class levels. They are reduced to 1 Outsider HD, but gain more as they rise up the celestial or fiendish hierarchy.
4. Half-celestials (and half-fiends) have the outsider type, but their HD are as their base race. They are treated as mortals.
codewarriorpro said:
I haven't been able to find explicit rules for divine ascension, so I intend to use the following guidelines:
1. "True" deities, who are divine from birth or creation, start with 20 Outsider HD.
2. Mortals (including undead, dragons, magical beasts, etc.) who go straight to divinity do not get additional Outsider HD.
3. Mortals who die become petitioners and lose their previous race HD and class levels. They are reduced to 1 Outsider HD, but gain more as they rise up the celestial or fiendish hierarchy.
4. Half-celestials (and half-fiends) have the outsider type, but their HD are as their base race. They are treated as mortals.
