Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[BOZ]

1) The thing that bugs me most is consistency. I would have liked to see a level playing field drawn between the Draconomicon articles in Dragon, and the Fiendish Codices (we can assume that Devils will recieve the same treatment?). This strikes me as pretty basic. In other words, updated (and in some cases, powered-up) BoVD stats.

agreed, on all counts. i know i'm not alone in thinking that the Demonomicon/BoVD level stats should have been left as-is. while i'm OK with the "lowering to minimum with the option to increase like crazy" concept, life would have been so much simpler if we had one set of stats, in the say CR 25-35 range that these other sources provide.

if i ever have occasion to run a combat against a demon lord, i can't see using the CR19-23 stat blocks, and i would absolutely favor the higher stat range.

and honestly, i can even dig how some books/websites have even tougher stat blocks than those, and i'd even consider using them depending on the circumstances.

 

[Shemeska]

Game historical. Look at Deities & Demigods, look at the Monster Manual & Fiend Folio. Those "Demon Princes" were no match for the gods.

Within the in game history of the planes, there's an almost monolithic precident for true deities and archfiends largely staying out of one anothers business, and when they do come into conflict, the archfiends have tended to slap the deities around like five dollar whores. See the examples I gave earlier in the thread. Call it home field advantage, define it as you like, but the record is rather clear in the context of planar politics and affairs that the fiends have an upper hand on their own planes when dealing with deities who also inhabit those same planes.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

And another thing, for those who want to pose the "but what if there are NO 54 HD pit fiends/60HD balors?

Even if there aren't advanced fiends, you need to consider what would happen if say...FIVE balors decided to kick Demogorgon's two headed arse. Or if a pit fiend grabbed his two buddies and a few cornugons to go curbstomp Bel.


These stats don't exist in a vacuum. There are other things to consider, and more important for internal consistancy, than the levels of your players. For everyone who has said they need lower level stats to kill demon princes with, have you ever thought that maybe your players just shouldn't be able to do that at their level any more than they can knock the moon out of the sky, lift mountains with their bare hands, or shoot laser beams out of their eyes?

I haven't heard a single good excuse for a CR 19 Jubilex yet. Let alone a CR 23 Demogorgon.

 

[Terwox]

I'm fine with lowering the CR.

I'd like to be able to run a 20th level game that ended with slaying a demon lord.

But, I'd of liked the option to run a 25th level game that ended with slaying a demon lord... I'd of far rather they simply presented power-level options rather than calling this the "new and improved stats."

I'm not too worried about the consistency of these guys being weaker -- I've never used them anyway. It DOES seem silly to have a demon prince easily slain by a pair of Balors or a single Solar, though.

The solution is simple though... if you don't like where they're going with it, and you're sure you like the older versions better... then use the older versions! If you have a stronger concept of what is cool for you, go with that, of course go with that!

I think a lot of people who haven't used demon lords much (like myself) will get better use out of these stats because they'll no longer be out of reach.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

I'm fine with lowering the CR.

I'd like to be able to run a 20th level game that ended with slaying a demon lord.

But, I'd of liked the option to run a 25th level game that ended with slaying a demon lord... I'd of far rather they simply presented power-level options rather than calling this the "new and improved stats."

I'm not too worried about the consistency of these guys being weaker -- I've never used them anyway. It DOES seem silly to have a demon prince easily slain by a pair of Balors or a single Solar, though.

The solution is simple though... if you don't like where they're going with it, and you're sure you like the older versions better... then use the older versions! If you have a stronger concept of what is cool for you, go with that, of course go with that!

I think a lot of people who haven't used demon lords much (like myself) will get better use out of these stats because they'll no longer be out of reach.

Ok, having said that, I ask, WHY?

Do you never introduce NPCs that your players can't beat? There are no wise old men in taverns, full of magical might should they be messed with? No brave retired paladin kings on the throne?

You admit that it is silly with solars and balors being very real and serious physical threats to the demon lords, but say that you can now get 'better use' out of them. How is it better use when you lose the sense of prestige associated with their defeat? Is the internal consistancy of your campaign world not important to you?

No one is saying that these weak demon lord stats will disrupt their campaign. No one feels that "oh the book said this, I can't possibly change it". Everyone knows about Rule 0. That's not really helpful or pertinant here though. What the issue is here, is how powerful should a demon lord actually be? If you think your players should be able to challenge a demon lord at 20th level, WHY? Do you think they should be able to challenge a paragon great wyrm dracolich at 20th level? A demigod? A greater god?

The concern here is not about the combat use one can make of the stats, but about the poor reflection of the supposed flavor these stats give.

 

[delericho]

But then this brings up the question, does 'use' matter? Would you advocate that same concept be applied to gods? Should greater gods have a CR of, oh say, 24, and then have a method where you can 'scale them up' to keep them at least a level higher than the party cleric? What about high level NPCs like Larloch or Elminster? Should he be CR 20 or below because he is 'no use' to the bulk of DnD games?

Books have finiate page-counts. Everything that goes in means that something else needs to be cut. That being the case, I think 'use' is a very important issue.

I'm not suggesting Elminster should be scaled down, the Great Wyrms should be CR 25, or that the Greater Gods should be no higher than CR 28 (which is about the limit that can be challenged by a skilled and lucky 20th level party).

What I am saying is that if these creatures are so powerful they cannot be challenged, the stats are of no use to me, so should be omitted. Just give me Elminster's class levels and CR, and I'll work up stats if I ever need them. Then, use that half-page for something else.

The stat-block for each of the gods in Deities & Demigods is more than a page in length. The same is true of the stat blocks in Faiths & Pantheons. That's an awful lot of wasted paper. (And even if I did find myself needing deity stats, it's highly unlikely that I'll ever need the stats for more than one deity, so even if I use the book, it's still a miniscule fraction of the page-count.)

Great Wyrm Dragons aren't useful to games of sub-20th level, AS ADVERSARIES.

Unless the creature is going to be used in combat, I don't need stats, only a rough idea of what it's capable of. And if the combat does not involve the PCs, then I still don't need stats - I'll just narrate the battle between the Great Wyrm gold dragon and those six Balors, and get back to the focus of my game - what the PCs are doing.

Now, there are some cases where the PCs might be fighting alongside the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon against an army of Balors. In which case it's true that I probably do need stats. But it's such a rare occurrance that I think the space taken up by the GWGD's stats is still better used for other things - I'll just scale up a weaker dragon if and when the time comes.

You shouldn't be basing the use of a creature though (much less a unique NPC) based on how many people's parties can roll initiative and walk away the victors.

Great Wrym Dragons should be at the CR they are at. They ARE that powerful. If that means that you can't use them in your games as a combat, that's ok. They don't need to be a combat. Not all creatures in the game exist only to convert into XP for the PCs.

But if it's not used in combat, why do you need stats? Especially for something like a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, which should probably only exist as unique creatures anyway, so a set of stats can be considered one example at best.

 

[fafhrd]

But if it's not used in combat, why do you need stats? Especially for something like a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, which should probably only exist as unique creatures anyway, so a set of stats can be considered one example at best.

For those of you who haven't read Sep's storyhour(shame on you), the vast majority of the saga involves an epic struggle against one of the big demon lords. We rarely see the villain directly, but his hand and will are the forces driving the conflict. The stats inform us, telling us not only of the foe's capabilities, but also the measure of its demeanor.

 

[Matafuego]

Maybe the CR's are ok, after looking for the Solar entry in the SRD
It reads:

"Solars are puissant champions of good. Only the most powerful fiends approach their power."

Demogorgon is one of the most powerful fiends. Isn't he?

 

[Mirtek]

Plus, the historical background says that gods should be more powerful than demon lords and princes.

Actually no, it doesn't say that. The background says that many of these lords and princess are true deities in their own right. Granted, none of them was higher in rank than lesser god, but they were gods nonetheless

True, but the actual stats didn't compare, so they still would have had their butts handed to them by 1E lesser gods. Even some demi-gods.

Well, Lolth had bad stats (although once she was promoted to lesser goddess status along with the rest of her archfiends that meant her hp doubled while on her homeplane), but others had the stats to mess with other demi- and lesser gods.

If you look in 1e Temple of Elemental Evil you see that Zuggtmoy has the stats to challenge Iuz or St. Cuthberth

 

[orangefruitbat]

1E Scripture

Lolth should have 66 HP, and Tiamat should be slain by 48 HP of damage to the body. Anything else is heresy.