Demon Pact Warlock

[Nifft]

Okay, here's the more in-depth look:

Demon Claw: Looks good. I like that it's not a Weapon attack, and that it's not redundant with Eldritch Strike.

Elemental Corruption: Too fiddly! Look at how they errata'd Darkspiral Aura. Here's how I'd re-write Elemental Corruption:

When an enemy under your Warlock's Curse is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, add 1 to your Elemental Corruption value. Your Elemental Corruption value starts at 0, and resets to 0 when you take a short or extended rest.

Elemental Corruption Shield • Warlock Pact Boon
At-Will • Arcane (and varies)
Immediate Interrupt • Close burst 5
Trigger: An enemy within the burst attacks you.
Effect: Spend 1 or more points of your Elemental Corruption value to create a shield of swirling elemental energy. Your shield lasts until the end of your next turn, and deals 1d6 damage per point spent for each attack against you by a creature within 5 squares.
Choose one damage type when you use this power: acid, cold, fire, lightning or thunder. The power gains the keyword of its damage type(s).
At 11th level, choose 2 damage types.
At 21st level, choose 3 damage types.
​

- - -

Destructive Bite: Nice.

Blinding Spittle: IMHO the most boring thing about Infernal Warlocks is that all they get for having a high Int is more damage to some powers. I'd rather you stuck with the idea of Demon Pact = close melee dude and did something like:

Demon Pact: Using this power does not provoke opportunity attacks.​

Lightning Strike: Either do something like what I suggest for the power above ("does not provoke") or make it a Close power (which targets one or two creatures in burst). The current use case for this power is attack someone far away and then run up next to a bunch of minions, which is kinda interesting, but not interesting enough to justify losing use of this power once you're in close combat.

Roar of Battle: Nice.

Flaming Claws: The extra damage is a problem (as discussed above). Also, it's just Fire damage, which is boring -- Infernal Warlocks already throw a lot of that around. I like how Demon Warlocks have lots of mixed damage attacks, so you could do something like:

Balefire Claws
Encounter • Arcane, Cold, Fire, Implement
...
Hit: ... cold and fire damage
...
Demon Pact: Until the end of your next turn, you can add the cold and fire keyword to all your attacks. Your damage is cold and fire in addition to whatever type it would have been.​

Abyssal Frost: Hmm, looking a bit Defender-ish there. Slow + difficult terrain = about as bad as Marked by a Warden or Fighter. You might want to make it an Area burst 1 range 10 squares?

Also, boring damage type. Add Acid or Necrotic or something.

Finally, you are not your own ally. So your zone is difficult for you. Dunno if that's desired, but I hope not!

Fiery Blood: This is one of the few powers I wish had fewer damage keywords. It's easy enough to make my allies buy "resist fire" stuff, but buying everyone resist poison as well? They'd hate me. I couldn't justify taking this power.

Also, the trigger is wonky: "taking damage" probably means "you take damage", but doesn't mean exactly the same thing.

Storm Burst: Now this is a Striker power. It says: stay near me and suffer! It's the opposite of Abyssal Frost.

Claws of Decay: Nice.

Stunning Screech: Nice. Might want to add another damage type (say, Psychic).

Blasphemous Words: Nice. You may want to add "If you hit..." to the Infernal Pact bonus.

Abyssal Bolts: Nice.

Stunning Scream: Another too-Defender-ish power. Make it a Close Blast 5 and then it works. Otherwise, you're going to be trapped in your own difficult terrain, against a bunch of enemies that can only reach you!

Fire and Lightning: What's "Melee touch +2"? Make it "Close burst 3; target: one critter in burst" and then it's clear.

Primary attack's damage is too low.

Indicate if the secondary attack is supposed to happen even if you miss with the primary attack (e.g. if you use the primary attack on a target that is already adjacent).

Two Reflex attacks = boring; make the first one Will or Fort maybe?

The Demon Pact benefit is boring. Maybe make the range larger for Demon Warlocks? Or Daze the target if both attacks hit?

- - -

Maybe it's just because I've been reading Barbarian powers recently, but the damage on these Daily attacks seems a bit low.

Channel Evistro: Nice. As already suggested by someone else, limit the Demonic Claw Augmentation to 1/round.

Channel Balgura: 2d8, I hope, not 2d18.

Summon Carnage: Does it get an Opportunity Action? You might want to specify "... in an unoccupied square adjacent ...".

I don't like this one mainly because I don't think of Warlocks as summoners. But that is a matter of taste, not balance.

Channel Mezzodemon: Nice. I don't know if you want to give Reach 2 for all attacks, or just for Demonic Claw attacks.

Channel Immolith: Fire damage = somewhat boring at 15th level. The Zone needs to move with you. Otherwise, good synergy between Reflex bonus and Grabbed. Consider granting fire resistance instead of AC bonus. Otherwise, nice.

Channel Goristro: Nice, but very beefy power boost for the Claws. Perhaps add ongoing damage to the Claw attacks instead, since that doesn't stack over multiple attacks?

Channel Glabrezu: Twin Strike is a great power. Be careful handing it out to other Strikers. Instead, you could give two attack rolls (use highest; if both would hit, target is also grabbed). That's still very good.

Channel Balor: By 29th level, single damage types = boring. Also, don't give away Twin Strike. Finally, the Balor has both the aura of nasty and an at-will which pulls you adjacent to him. Consider giving the claw power two attack rolls (as I suggest for the Glabrezu) and a Pull to a square adjacent to you, instead of two whole attacks.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mentat55]

For Fire and Lightning, if you want a reach 3 attack, you can just call it Melee 3. But Melee touch + 2 reach would fit the general form of weapon attacks that have extra reach, which I believe are denoted Melee weapon + 1 reach (e.g., the Dread Reaper PP level 11 power and Lunging Reach, fighter encounter 1).

I think Nifft's rework of Elemental Corruption is a bit cleaner, but in either case it is just too similar to Darkspiral Aura. I think that, so far, the different pact boons are quite interesting and different, both mechanically and flavorwise. I don't have a good alternative selection right now, though.

I've know had some time to read the powers very carefully, more selected thoughts.

Channel Goristro: I think it would be cool if this was a charge attack, and you pushed the target and/or knocked it prone. Then your Demon Claw attacks could push the target and do an increased die size of damage (instead of flat extra d10 damage), or maybe you grow horns, and when you hit with Demon Claws, you can make a gore attack as a free action that does low damage and slides a target.

Channel Glabrezu: Again, I kind of agree with Nifft about handing out extra attacks. Perhaps your Demon Claw attacks simply grab a target, and then if you have a grabbed target, you can spend a standard action to deal damage to the target automatically? Or ongoing damage while grabbed?

A low-level summoning power could summon a dretch or quasit, or an encounter power could give you dretch-like powers.

No Channel Vrock? A polymorph power that grants you flight for an encounter, plus maybe some sort of spore attack or aura, would be sweet. A Channel Marilith power could involve a close burst (don't really want to hand out 6 attacks), and then turn Demon Claws into a close burst attack that targets enemies.

The more I read this, the more I like it! Great work -- and may I use it for an upcoming BBEG in my campaign?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Okay, here's the more in-depth look:

Demon Claw: Looks good. I like that it's not a Weapon attack, and that it's not redundant with Eldritch Strike.

Elemental Corruption: Too fiddly! Look at how they errata'd Darkspiral Aura. Here's how I'd re-write Elemental Corruption:

When an enemy under your Warlock's Curse is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, add 1 to your Elemental Corruption value. Your Elemental Corruption value starts at 0, and resets to 0 when you take a short or extended rest.

Elemental Corruption Shield • Warlock Pact Boon
At-Will • Arcane (and varies)
Immediate Interrupt • Close burst 5
Trigger: An enemy within the burst attacks you.
Effect: Spend 1 or more points of your Elemental Corruption value to create a shield of swirling elemental energy. Your shield lasts until the end of your next turn, and deals 1d6 damage per point spent for each attack against you by a creature within 5 squares.
Choose one damage type when you use this power: acid, cold, fire, lightning or thunder. The power gains the keyword of its damage type(s).
At 11th level, choose 2 damage types.
At 21st level, choose 3 damage types.
​

Looks indeed a little cleaner. The boon was inspired by the Darkspiral Aura, and I guess I didn't use the errated version. (Don't remember just now if I got it from my Player Guide or not, but probably.)

Destructive Bite: Nice.

Blinding Spittle: IMHO the most boring thing about Infernal Warlocks is that all they get for having a high Int is more damage to some powers. I'd rather you stuck with the idea of Demon Pact = close melee dude and did something like:

Demon Pact: Using this power does not provoke opportunity attacks.​

I don't like the high INT aspect either. Maybe I should just switch to Charisma or Strength, the standard Warlock ability suggestions be damned.

Lightning Strike: Either do something like what I suggest for the power above ("does not provoke") or make it a Close power (which targets one or two creatures in burst). The current use case for this power is attack someone far away and then run up next to a bunch of minions, which is kinda interesting, but not interesting enough to justify losing use of this power once you're in close combat.

I tend to go that route now, too. The initial idea was to still have some ranged power, but ultimately, the Warlock will always have Eldritch Blast, so there is not really a need.

Roar of Battle: Nice.

Flaming Claws: The extra damage is a problem (as discussed above). Also, it's just Fire damage, which is boring -- Infernal Warlocks already throw a lot of that around. I like how Demon Warlocks have lots of mixed damage attacks, so you could do something like:

Balefire Claws
Encounter • Arcane, Cold, Fire, Implement
...
Hit: ... cold and fire damage
...
Demon Pact: Until the end of your next turn, you can add the cold and fire keyword to all your attacks. Your damage is cold and fire in addition to whatever type it would have been.​

You find single damage types boring, eh? I think dual energy types are something for higher tiers, at these levels, you won't have that many problems with resistant critters.

I see your issue with the extra damage, but I also tend to think the benefit is okay - I want such group synergies to happen. And it is not like other Leaders don't have damage improving powers that could be similarly abused. I'll think about it.

Abyssal Frost: Hmm, looking a bit Defender-ish there. Slow + difficult terrain = about as bad as Marked by a Warden or Fighter. You might want to make it an Area burst 1 range 10 squares?

Also, boring damage type. Add Acid or Necrotic or something.

Finally, you are not your own ally. So your zone is difficult for you. Dunno if that's desired, but I hope not!

I kept rewording this power, and have to check again. You might have a point here with the damage type - what's so abyssal about dealing cold damage.

Fiery Blood: This is one of the few powers I wish had fewer damage keywords. It's easy enough to make my allies buy "resist fire" stuff, but buying everyone resist poison as well? They'd hate me. I couldn't justify taking this power.

Also, the trigger is wonky: "taking damage" probably means "you take damage", but doesn't mean exactly the same thing.

I consider this part of the risk of pacting with demons.

Storm Burst: Now this is a Striker power. It says: stay near me and suffer! It's the opposite of Abyssal Frost.


Claws of Decay: Nice.

Stunning Screech: Nice. Might want to add another damage type (say, Psychic).

I thought about that, but the power is basically stolen from the Vrock, and that only deals thunder damage. Maybe I'll ignore that, it kinda feels psychic.

Blasphemous Words: Nice. You may want to add "If you hit..." to the Infernal Pact bonus.

Abyssal Bolts: Nice.

Are you okay with the Minor Action?

Stunning Scream: Another too-Defender-ish power. Make it a Close Blast 5 and then it works. Otherwise, you're going to be trapped in your own difficult terrain, against a bunch of enemies that can only reach you!

Excellent remark. It definitely shouldn't be a trap for the character himself.

Fire and Lightning: What's "Melee touch +2"? Make it "Close burst 3; target: one critter in burst" and then it's clear.

Primary attack's damage is too low.

Indicate if the secondary attack is supposed to happen even if you miss with the primary attack (e.g. if you use the primary attack on a target that is already adjacent).

Two Reflex attacks = boring; make the first one Will or Fort maybe?

The Demon Pact benefit is boring. Maybe make the range larger for Demon Warlocks? Or Daze the target if both attacks hit?

I thought that not indenting and not saying "make a secondary attack" on the hit line would be enough. An alternative usually would be an effect line, but I already have one.

Maybe it's just because I've been reading Barbarian powers recently, but the damage on these Daily attacks seems a bit low.

Again, I tried to compare damage to existing powers.

Channel Evistro: Nice. As already suggested by someone else, limit the Demonic Claw Augmentation to 1/round.

Yep.

Channel Balgura: 2d8, I hope, not 2d18.

I used this to help me promote my up-coming line of d18 (TM) dice.

Summon Carnage: Does it get an Opportunity Action? You might want to specify "... in an unoccupied square adjacent ...".

Opportunity Actions - yes, I have forgotten that option. I should think about it. I agree with the unoccupied square.

I don't like this one mainly because I don't think of Warlocks as summoners. But that is a matter of taste, not balance.

It might also be a matter of class role - zones, conjurations and summonings are all very strong controllerish - but the Warlock already has that going for himself, so I tend to think it is okay, and it also fits this Pact. (Though the Infernal Pact might also deserve such powers.

Channel Mezzodemon: Nice. I don't know if you want to give Reach 2 for all attacks, or just for Demonic Claw attacks.

For all attacks. That's why I try to use "Melee Touch" often.

Channel Immolith: Fire damage = somewhat boring at 15th level. The Zone needs to move with you. Otherwise, good synergy between Reflex bonus and Grabbed. Consider granting fire resistance instead of AC bonus. Otherwise, nice.

It's an Immolith, they are all fire! But Fire Resistance... wait, why didn't I give it that again?

Channel Goristro: Nice, but very beefy power boost for the Claws. Perhaps add ongoing damage to the Claw attacks instead, since that doesn't stack over multiple attacks?

Will consider it when revisiting the power.

Channel Glabrezu: Twin Strike is a great power. Be careful handing it out to other Strikers. Instead, you could give two attack rolls (use highest; if both would hit, target is also grabbed). That's still very good.

Yes, it is, and probably sufficient.

Channel Balor: By 29th level, single damage types = boring. Also, don't give away Twin Strike. Finally, the Balor has both the aura of nasty and an at-will which pulls you adjacent to him. Consider giving the claw power two attack rolls (as I suggest for the Glabrezu) and a Pull to a square adjacent to you, instead of two whole attacks.

I think about it. I somehow wanted to represent the themes of the two Balar attacks, that's why I made it two attacks, each with one energy form.

Cheers, -- N

Thanks a lot so far! Lots of good remarks.

For Fire and Lightning, if you want a reach 3 attack, you can just call it Melee 3. But Melee touch + 2 reach would fit the general form of weapon attacks that have extra reach, which I believe are denoted Melee weapon + 1 reach (e.g., the Dread Reaper PP level 11 power and Lunging Reach, fighter encounter 1).

Yes, that was the idea behind.

I think Nifft's rework of Elemental Corruption is a bit cleaner, but in either case it is just too similar to Darkspiral Aura. I think that, so far, the different pact boons are quite interesting and different, both mechanically and flavorwise. I don't have a good alternative selection right now, though.

For a very central theme of the Pact, this is indeed problematic. But I have a hard time figuring out alternatives. I am tempted to turn it into straight extra damage to his Warlock Curse, but that is probably imbalanced. I think the basic goal of the Pact Boon is to provide a Striker-helping utility power to the Warlock, but not be used for direct offense.

I've know had some time to read the powers very carefully, more selected thoughts.

Channel Goristro: I think it would be cool if this was a charge attack, and you pushed the target and/or knocked it prone. Then your Demon Claw attacks could push the target and do an increased die size of damage (instead of flat extra d10 damage), or maybe you grow horns, and when you hit with Demon Claws, you can make a gore attack as a free action that does low damage and slides a target.

I don't want to deal with dice changes, I find that a little cumbersome.
But making it a charge attack (or allow to use it as part of a charge, which I am more leaning towards) would be fine.

Channel Glabrezu: Again, I kind of agree with Nifft about handing out extra attacks. Perhaps your Demon Claw attacks simply grab a target, and then if you have a grabbed target, you can spend a standard action to deal damage to the target automatically? Or ongoing damage while grabbed?

I will think about this. It is probably correct, "double" attacks are bad. Each power can have its own approach.

A low-level summoning power could summon a dretch or quasit, or an encounter power could give you dretch-like powers.

Yesterday I wrote summoning powers for Dretch, Gnaw Demon, Vrock and Marilith.

No Channel Vrock? A polymorph power that grants you flight for an encounter, plus maybe some sort of spore attack or aura, would be sweet.

I've had some Vrock related power ideas, but I don't like it as a transformation target - I prefer roughly humanoid shapes for that.

A Channel Marilith power could involve a close burst (don't really want to hand out 6 attacks), and then turn Demon Claws into a close burst attack that targets enemies.

Aside from the Marilith Summoning, I also have a Marilith Chanelling power in the works now.

The more I read this, the more I like it! Great work -- and may I use it for an upcoming BBEG in my campaign?

Well, personally I wouldn't want to use a PC writeup for an NPC, but I certainly won't stop you. The flavor might be "stealable" even with an monster/NPC write-up.

Thanks a lot for the comments. I will see when I can provide an update, and keep coming up with suggestions.

I especially like alternate takes on the Elemental Corruption Pact Benefit. The flavor idea is that the Warlock has (barely controlled) traces of elemental and abyssal energies in him.
The mechanical direction to take is to have something that helps him in his role as a melee striker - make it dangerous to attack him, or make it easier for him to get in and out of melee, or just make him tougher. I tend to think the first works best for the intended flavor, but I'd love to hear more ideas or better implementations than the Darkspiral Aura copy.

 

[Mentat55]

Maybe the pact boon would grant the demon pact warlock an aura, which either grows stronger or larger the more times the pact boon is triggered? Or it could grant the warlock some sort of resistance, a la the variable resistance of demons?

 

[Nifft]

Looks indeed a little cleaner. The boon was inspired by the Darkspiral Aura, and I guess I didn't use the errated version.

Darkspiral aura:
- Only works against Ranged and Melee attacks. No area attacks (close or ranged).
- Only affects one attack per round (limitation of Interrupt) - weak against multi-attackers.
- Has an effect limited to a single attacker - weak against minion groups.

When designing the replacement for Elemental Corruption, I tried to be a bit different:
- Works against any attack from within 5 squares (emphasizes melee strength and ranged weakness).
- Affects any number of attackers (good against minion groups & multi-attackers).

You find single damage types boring, eh? I think dual energy types are something for higher tiers, at these levels, you won't have that many problems with resistant critters.

IMHO pure fire damage is boring for a Warlock, especially a Con-based Warlock, since the Infernal power list already has a lot of that.

I consider this part of the risk of pacting with demons.

If you keep it, IMHO you should change the Trigger to a discrete event. ("You are taking damage" refers to a span of time rather than a single instance. "You take damage" would be a single instance.)

Are you okay with the Minor Action?

Ooo, I hadn't noticed! (Though I did notice for the bite attack.) Sorry, wasn't paying enough attention to action type.

I think it's nicely flexible as a Standard action. Giving this as a Minor is too strong. Minor action attacks should be more like the new Rogue and Ranger attacks: on par with an At-Will. Minor action attacks give you flexibility by allowing you to do two different things in a round! They don't need to have multiple effects.

Also, I liked that the earlier Minor action attack only worked on Bloodied foes. That's cool: it's not a minion-killer. Making all Minor action attacks require Bloodied targets is tactically interesting. The Warlock who focused on those Encounter powers would not have to fall back on At-Wills by the end of the fight: his arsenal would be saved specifically for the second half of the fight!

I thought that not indenting and not saying "make a secondary attack" on the hit line would be enough. An alternative usually would be an effect line, but I already have one.

You could put "... and make a secondary attack" at the end of the Effect line.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Darkspiral aura:
- Only works against Ranged and Melee attacks. No area attacks (close or ranged).
- Only affects one attack per round (limitation of Interrupt) - weak against multi-attackers.
- Has an effect limited to a single attacker - weak against minion groups.

When designing the replacement for Elemental Corruption, I tried to be a bit different:
- Works against any attack from within 5 squares (emphasizes melee strength and ranged weakness).
- Affects any number of attackers (good against minion groups & multi-attackers).

Defense against melee and close attacks was where I was going for, too. Since this Warlock is often in melee, this is what he has to worry about, and he needs to provide some disincentives for enemies to strike at him.

IMHO pure fire damage is boring for a Warlock, especially a Con-based Warlock, since the Infernal power list already has a lot of that.

You are probably right... It doesn't have be flaming claws. Poisons or Acid might make a lot more sense...

If you keep it, IMHO you should change the Trigger to a discrete event. ("You are taking damage" refers to a span of time rather than a single instance. "You take damage" would be a single instance.)

Yes, the wording is bad.

Ooo, I hadn't noticed! (Though I did notice for the bite attack.) Sorry, wasn't paying enough attention to action type.

I think it's nicely flexible as a Standard action. Giving this as a Minor is too strong. Minor action attacks should be more like the new Rogue and Ranger attacks: on par with an At-Will. Minor action attacks give you flexibility by allowing you to do two different things in a round! They don't need to have multiple effects.

The original was based on a monster power that was also a minor action, but that monster was Elite. Your concerns on sensible balance are correct, and I think I prefer this version with the multiple attack thing. Maybe some more Minor Action Powers can be added at another point.

Also, I liked that the earlier Minor action attack only worked on Bloodied foes. That's cool: it's not a minion-killer. Making all Minor action attacks require Bloodied targets is tactically interesting. The Warlock who focused on those Encounter powers would not have to fall back on At-Wills by the end of the fight: his arsenal would be saved specifically for the second half of the fight!

Exactly. And this is often a good thing, especially with MM2 - many monsters get really nasty when they are bloodied, so better kill them off fast.

You could put "... and make a secondary attack" at the end of the Effect line.
Cheers, -- N

I'll think about it. Maybe I reverse the sequence of effect/attack description. Could first name the Effect, and then say as last sentence in the effect line: "Make the following attacks", and the have two Hit Lines with the attack # in parentheses or something like that.

Like:

<bla bla bla>
Effect: You partially transform into a Balor. You gain a +3 bonus to AC and Fortitude and Reflex Defense, and gain Resist 15 Lightning and Fire, your size increases to large and you gain Reach 3.
If you are bloodied, enemies starting their turn adjacent to you take 5+INT fire damage.
Make the following two melee touch attacks as Secondary Attack:
Secondary Attack Target: 1 creature in reach
Secondary Attack: Con vs Fortitude and Con vs Reflex
Hit (Fortitude): 2d10 + CON lightning damage and you pull the target 2 squares.
Hit (Reflex): 2d10 + CON fire damage.
Hit (Both): The target gains Vulnerability 10 to fire and lightning (save ends).
Demonic Augmentation: When making a Demon Claw Attack, you can make two attack rolls and pick the higher one, and your attacks can deal lightning and fire damage.

Probably too strong now... 2 Attacks with full modifiers probably means the power needs to deal less damage. And there are a lots of effects overall. But on the other hand, the Prismatic xyz powers are often similar in number of effects...

 

[Nifft]

One last note: from a design perspective, the Rogue and Ranger minor-action attacks are a great way to help get your once-per-round extra damage (sneak attack or hunter's quarry) if you miss with your regular Standard action attack.

So they explicitly do NOT need special handling for Curse damage. Trust the player to use the minor action powers when he hasn't done Curse damage yet that round.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Okay, I incorporated a lot of ideas here, added a few additional powers (particularly a lot of utility powers) and also some feats. I had to split up my Livejournal posts since there are apparently some size restrictions. See here:
Powers below 15th level: Archchancellors Thoughts - Demon Pact Warlock II - Powers up to 13th level
Powers 15th level and higher: Archchancellors Thoughts - Demon Pact Warlock III - Powers of 15th level and up
Feats: Archchancellors Thoughts - Demon Pact Warlock IV - Feats

I am considering to add paragon paths (Demon Possessed?) and Epic Destiny (Demonbinder?), but I don't think I will do much with the powers itself now. I hope to have fixed the conceptual problems and the remainders is stuff like damage values that are a little off. Hope springs eternal and dies last and so...

The paragon path basically has the concept that the Warlock is letting a demon possess him to gain some extra powers. The Epic Destiny reverses the theme - the Warlock is taking control over his inner demon(s), eventually breaking free of his Pact, having wrestled the demons power from them instead of just "borrowing" it by his pact.