Developing a full Martial Controller Monk Via Feats / Build

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Then there is enabling the higher end control we need to consider. We can make powers that do full controller effects directly when they have either the Take down stance involved or just trigger it off of having the Soft Style class feature. (class features used to change many individual powers is a norm)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
From Mao's analysis of the monk as a controller....

Controller - Monk are awesome minion killers, but they lack the hard control of a true controller or even a rogue. Eternal Tide and Centered BreathMonks upgrade this significantly because of how easily they can rinse and repeat Flurry of Blows at a distance once Paragon/Epic hit. Stone Fist has some options via feats to make all their daily powers add in both Daze(save ends) and Slow(save ends)

@MwaO do you have any thoughts on what might be done
I am wondering if the Pressure Points feats need to be limited to those with the Soft Style (Way of the Gentle Hand) I wasnt thinking of doing so but.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
What about a feat like this for Dazing

Quivering Disruption
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite
: 11th level, monk, Way of the Gentle Hand feature
Benefit: When you hit an enemy with a daily attack power, you also daze the enemy (save ends). If the attack already dazes the enemy, after daze ends perhaps immobilized save ends.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I am thinking that a feat to upgrade slows to immobilized with the sacrifice of a damage die might be in the mix for this.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Or opponents STR mod replacing your Stat mod - use greater strength against itself.
I am now thinking that the take down stance would be gained automatically with the Soft Form selection as well as the defocusing of their flurry. And putting the damage as a feat Called using their strength against them this would make the feat very much analogous to the White lotus riposte - and defang the default gained by the Takedown stance and that is a win win.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
So this is what I have currently the Gentle Hand becomes a class feature I named its converse Iron Fist - this is well probably a repetition of something somewhere else in the monk class but seems perfect. Hmmm does it need to take a minor action to enter the stance distinct from the free action to knock down their adversaries

1570502317534.png
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
To get "Using Their Strength Against Them" and having their own strength in damage from the Gentle Take Down ends up being a feat ... I figure that feat cost is like the Arcane White Lotus Riposte (but its context is only if you are using the stance)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
And perhaps to make that feat more generalized it could allow the monk to deliver the subjects own strength in damage to anyone knocked prone by a monk power?

This could allow even the Striker variety monk to make use of it.

Perhaps it could even be just a Martial Feat (so any class with knockdowns can add that as a feat bonus to damage)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
And here is what I have... it can be used by any martial class like some of my martial techniques it pulls the martial artist concept open.

1570505080223.png
 
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Instead of abandoning psionoic, make it a hybrid class. Martial|Psionic.

I have a bias towards making essentisials-esque classes, as it reduces the number of powers you need to add.

I also think that characters should have a minigame. How about a Ki minigame? As you spend PP, your Centering goes up; then you burn Centering.

1. Your unarmed BA is 2[W], 3[W] at level 11 and 4[W] at level 21. Your unarmed [W] is 1d4.
2. You have abilities that burn dice to cause riders. If you use a weapon, you get fewer [W] to play with.

PP use:

1. Every time you spend a PP, you gain a Centering.
2. Each "encounter" power has PP augments.
3. At-will, 1 PP minor action BA flurry and move half your speed (once/turn).
4. Minor action power blow. Either burn 1 PP to get +1d4 damage die on next BA, or your next BA this turn deals 1d6+Centering additional 1d4s (consumes all of your Centering)
5. Reaction Evade. Add 1d6+Centering to at defence, consumes all of your Centering but refunds half as PP.

So it gives you a see-saw style of power, where you consume PP, get Centering, consume Centering for effects or damage or defence.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Instead of abandoning psionic, make it a hybrid class. Martial|Psionic.
While I considered that ... they are already power point free ie you are talking about adding pp to something that really works fine fully martial. (And the pp system already existing is pretty flawed)
-- sure the last avatar style fire magic could be a stylistic reason.

I have a bias towards making essentisials-esque classes, as it reduces the number of powers you need to add.
Looks like you are talking about adding a whole lot more to me. And I think allowing class features like the soft style with role specific booster feats in this case works very well towards the role switch over because it already had things that bring it close to controller in the first place. I am thinking only a few more than have been outlined would be needed to be basically useable - though perhaps more specifically designed for it would be needed for rich support. (I might be missing something)

I also think that characters should have a minigame. How about a Ki minigame? As you spend PP, your Centering goes up; then you burn Centering.
1. Your unarmed BA is 2[W], 3[W] at level 11 and 4[W] at level 21. Your unarmed [W] is 1d4.
2. You have abilities that burn dice to cause riders. If you use a weapon, you get fewer [W] to play with.

PP use:
1. Every time you spend a PP, you gain a Centering.
2. Each "encounter" power has PP augments.
3. At-will, 1 PP minor action BA flurry and move half your speed (once/turn).
4. Minor action power blow. Either burn 1 PP to get +1d4 damage die on next BA, or your next BA this turn deals 1d6+Centering additional 1d4s (consumes all of your Centering)
5. Reaction Evade. Add 1d6+Centering to at defence, consumes all of your Centering but refunds half as PP.

So it gives you a see-saw style of power, where you consume PP, get Centering, consume Centering for effects or damage or defence.
I generally feel that that is was a mistake turning BAs into readily super enhanceable things instead of something you could reliably just have granted by Warlord moves or other things the way it was through out the previous design paradigm essentials went against a lot of assumptions doing that and broke things while you could up a basic to be like an at-will (that was about as far as anything went on purpose)

Seems like a lot of fidgety numbers game are you sure its worth it? Or that its solidly modelling something? I see the idea of mentally shifting and extending going on and I can almost see berserkergang managed with something like that.

Also your ideas do not seem to actually bring on the controller monk unless I missed something
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
@Tony Vargas likes the essentials structure too btw. While I kind of see a reason to make essentials subclass builds if perhaps one wants to strongly partition them from actually using the powers of the parent class and you do not want what you make to interact with it very much.
 
@Tony Vargas likes the essentials structure too btw.
I do? I may have commented that it's easier to bang out a sub-class that spams basic attacks than something that requires actual powers...

While I kind of see a reason to make essentials subclass builds if perhaps one wants to strongly partition them from actually using the powers of the parent class and you do not want what you make to interact with it very much.
Now, post-E source-hybrids like the Berserker and Skald have some merit...

...I could see a full, Marital Controller class that embraces martial-arts Masters of all stripes, and a post-E style hybrid Martial|Psionic "Monk" sub-class that uses mystical-Ki-as-Psi and lifts some of the extant monk mechanics for that purpose.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I do? I may have commented that it's easier to bang out a sub-class that spams basic attacks than something that requires actual powers...

Now, post-E source-hybrids like the Berserker and Skald have some merit...
I do like the Berserker and I do not mind the hybridizing of sources necessarily ( but not when it just seems an excuse to not let Martial have goodies ) some of my thoughts also put a lot of the berserkergang as very martial including exploiting rage. - though if you are going ancestral spirits and spirit walking and so on maybe then. And at least the Skald may be redundant but they packaged some neat stuff in it that should have been in Martial Practices (and backgrounds). So they had good stuff in them yes.

...I could see a full, Marital Controller class that embraces martial-arts Masters of all stripes, and a post-E style hybrid Martial|Psionic "Monk" sub-class that uses mystical-Ki-as-Psi and lifts some of the extant monk mechanics for that purpose.
So they then do the Dragon ball z blasts...
 
I suppose so but unless that bullet gets bitten I am unconvinced straight martial isn't a good fit.
All, I think full-Martial is fine for a martial-arts Master, my thought was to 'demote' the "Monk" to a post-E-style hybrid Martial|Psionic sub-class thereof.

(In part because making the D&D faux-Shao-lin Monk a sub-class of a broader Monk Class that encompasses the full imaginable range of acetic traditions - from Benedictines to Bene Gesserit - would be a lot harder. Similarly, squeezing a hypothetical fencing Master concept into the Monk slot also seems daunting.)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
All, I think full-Martial is fine for a martial-arts Master, my thought was to 'demote' the "Monk" to a post-E-style hybrid Martial|Psionic sub-class thereof.
Pull the renaming trick for branding distinction eh...



Bene Gesserit - would be a lot harder.
Mind control for the win with a flavor that is hypnosis on steroids and high end Martial too ;) - there is another ingredient for the controller build influences.

Similarly, squeezing a hypothetical fencing Master concept into the Monk slot also seems daunting.)
the current one supports ummm lawnmower antics.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
We rather have 4 martial artists in the players handbook in my opinion... the monk is a multi-strike striker variant... that is ameniable to adjusting into a controller. And I think the Bene Gesserit gives one clue that will give a few more powers to a distinct Gentle Hand build and a Charisma secondary instead of perhaps wisdom.
 
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