Devils, the new paradigm?

[Voadam]

So devils are going to be changed in 4e to be fallen angels who are winged humanoids who wield weapons and not monstrosities.

Demons are to be monstrosities that often use tooth and claw (or tentacle).

Ice devils have been changed to be yugoloths who contracted to fight for Hell.

Succubi are now devils.

Erinyes are gone, succubi killed them and took their stuff.

Pit fiends are still big monstrous humanoids with a large weapon (similar to balors?) and giant poison sting tails

And I think there was an early minis preview showing side by side stat blocks implying spined devils will still be around be basically the same.

I thought the new paradigm was going to be everybody looks like the succubi and 1e archdevils, basically human with small horns and wings. They were going to be manipulators and not just LE monster combatants as they have been mechanically/thematically presented in prior editions.

Is there a new paradigm? Will there be significant thematic differences between say a balor and a pit fiend? Will the cast of monstrous devils from 1e/2e/3e stick around? Will there be more angel winged ones?

I'm seeing smaller thematic changes and more retention of prior descriptive specifics than I was expecting. I was really wondering how the pit fiend and others would fit into the 4e paradigm, and it looks like it is thematically the old way, just with some 4e different mechanics.

 

[Mirtek]

The question is: How do you define "monstrous" and "humanlike"?

Reading the first design & developement artcile I too though that devils would look more like this or that

The pit fiend does look far too montrous for what I would have expected after the articles.

So I guess we will have to wait and see what the designers define as monstrous. Is almost anything with two legs, two arms, a torso and a head = humanlike and you need really strang body features and a lot of tentacles to count as monstrous? Or are a pair of wings, horns and a tail already enough to cross over from humanlike to monstrous?

 

[Voadam]

One more data point, the fairly monstrous osyluth in the desert of desolation minis set.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Another interesting contrast: "angels" are now in as non-alignment-restricted enforcers for various gods. (From W&M.)

This means that each god - Bahamut, Tiamat, Orcus, whoever - will have creepy but cool winged dudes enforcing his/her ideals.

My question: how much difference will there be between an angel of an evil god and a devil? Are devils just angels of Asmodeus, or has their rebellion from their original god marked them in different ways?

 

[Lurks-no-More]

My question: how much difference will there be between an angel of an evil god and a devil? Are devils just angels of Asmodeus, or has their rebellion from their original god marked them in different ways?

At a guess, the rebellion has made devils rebellious. Angels are obedient servants of their deity, whereas devils serve reluctantly, and need to be bound into a hierarchy of obedience, intimidation and punishment.

 

[D.Shaffer]

One more data point, the fairly monstrous osyluth in the desert of desolation minis set.

It should be noted that the admittedly monstrous looking Osyluth has already been specifically mentioned as being an exception by the designers. Technically, they ARE demons (Yugoloths) in service to one of the devil lords.

In any case, the pit fiend is still rather humanoid. The pit fiend is bipedal and plantigrade. It stands basically upright. Its face is humanoid in structure. Its overall proportions are still rather humanoid, if a rather well built humanoid. It has a few monstrous features with the scales, claws, wings, and tail, but it's still fairly humanoid.

Compare this to how Orcus currently looks in 4th ed. Stooped forward. Digitigrade feet. Distinctly animal headed as opposed to humanoid. Barrel chested to an extreme. Look at the Vrock. Digitigrade, vulture headed, stopped forward, emaciated structure.

 

[Voadam]

I thought it was the Gelugon ice devils, not the osyluth bone devils who were the yugoloth soldier demon deal. Did they fold osyluths into that later as well?

 

[DreamChaser]

My question: how much difference will there be between an angel of an evil god and a devil? Are devils just angels of Asmodeus, or has their rebellion from their original god marked them in different ways?

I think the latter. The corruption of deicide is shared by Asmodeus and all of his followers (the devils). While they may have once been angels, they are now something different.

DC

 

[IanB]

I thought it was the Gelugon ice devils, not the osyluth bone devils who were the yugoloth soldier demon deal. Did they fold osyluths into that later as well?

I am pretty sure it is the ice devils that were given the contracted yugoloth treatment, but I do also know I read a message board post or something regarding the osyluth, to the effect that they debated for a long time about making it a demon instead of a devil, and decided to stick with devil despite the fact that it didn't totally match up with the new flavor.

 

[Simm]

I have to say that does look like the way things are going but I really hope that it isn't. The cosmological changes in the implied setting are one of the few things about 4e that I don't like. I liked the great wheel, the blood war, the demon/devil split, the deamon/angel split.

Historically it is demons who are schemers and devils who are mindless destroyers. After all devils are innately lawful and follow orders, devils are far better suited to scheming, practicing constantly against each other.

I'll look at what 4e, reimaging of outsiders has to offer, but unless it is an absolute work of art I'll probably end up rewriting it back to the way it was.