Dex modifiers when unconscious

[Li Shenron]

Int and wis stay the same because you don't get brain damage from being unconscious, in DND anyways. You don't forget things you know, they don't become things you knew. You still have all the mental capacity that you had before you were unconscious. Int and wis determine mental capacity and things known. You are still as mentaly active when you are unconscious as when you conscious.

Cha stays the same because you can still effect the outside world with how you look. Looks are part of personal magnetism which cha mainly represents, not the looks but the personal magnetism. Your cha determines how you effect the world around you, which can still be done while unconscious.

I never thought for 1 second that your brain got damaged. Exactly in the same way that your muscle, tendins and movement capacity is not necessarily damaged as well: nowhere it says that dropping below 0 means your muscles are necessarily broken, and in fact you may drop unconscious for many many other reasons (drowning, subdual damage, spells...), at least nothing says you are less likely to get unconscious because you got hurt on your head, which may mean temporary brain damage. In fact never I thought you "forget" things, you simply can't recall them because you can't think at the moment.

As for "You still have all the mental capacity that you had before you were unconscious", are you kidding? Well, if you mean that you don't become less Intelligent because when you wake up you're still as clever as before, that's of course true, but WHILE you're unconscious you are totally unable to use your intelligence, can you?

About "Cha stays the same because you can still effect the outside world with how you look. Looks are part of personal magnetism which cha mainly represents, not the looks but the personal magnetism", well I think it's quite a personal view. Charisma is a complex mix of things that gives you easiness in making other people do what you want them to do. I agree that look helps, but what you call "magnetism" I believe it comes from gestures, voice intonations, facial expressions, way of looking into the eyes... At least as unconscious you are NOT going the others to do what you want: do you think an Orc in front of the unsconscious stunningly beautiful princess would think she's too beautiful to really kidnap rather than she's too beautiful not to eat her? Or worse...

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About Will saves: as what I think "Will" means in English (I may be wrong, since I'm not English), you are not really willing much when unconscious. 99% of the spells which require a Will save are mind-affecting, therefore I think they DON'T WORK on unconscious creature, as much as they don't work on objects: that's EXACTLY why I wrote "treated as Wis NONE" and NOT "treated as Wis 0", which would have given you a -5, and it's a completely different thing.

You may instead play that you can still be targetted by such a spell when unconscious, the spell doesn't automatically fail, and make the ST normally, that's fine as well. But you're definitely not going to see any effect of the spell until you wake up again (now that I think, a Sleep spell may be a little different ).

Btw, I'm sure there are some spells with a Will save that are not mind-affecting, and in that case I'd rather go with the -5 to resist them. Still strikes me odd that willpower is a passive ability

 

[Zhure]

If your STR, DEX, INT, WIS and CHA become zero while you're unconscious then you're immune to many poisons and mind affecting spells. But you're not. An unconscious target can still be affected by a Charm Person and still be affected by "insanity mist" poison.

Greg

 

[Berk]

I never thought for 1 second that your brain got damaged. Exactly in the same way that your muscle, tendins and movement capacity is not necessarily damaged as well: nowhere it says that dropping below 0 means your muscles are necessarily broken, and in fact you may drop unconscious for many many other reasons (drowning, subdual damage, spells...), at least nothing says you are less likely to get unconscious because you got hurt on your head, which may mean temporary brain damage. In fact never I thought you "forget" things, you simply can't recall them because you can't think at the moment.

As for "You still have all the mental capacity that you had before you were unconscious", are you kidding? Well, if you mean that you don't become less Intelligent because when you wake up you're still as clever as before, that's of course true, but WHILE you're unconscious you are totally unable to use your intelligence, can you?

You don't dream do you?

About "Cha stays the same because you can still effect the outside world with how you look. Looks are part of personal magnetism which cha mainly represents, not the looks but the personal magnetism", well I think it's quite a personal view. Charisma is a complex mix of things that gives you easiness in making other people do what you want them to do. I agree that look helps, but what you call "magnetism" I believe it comes from gestures, voice intonations, facial expressions, way of looking into the eyes... At least as unconscious you are NOT going the others to do what you want: do you think an Orc in front of the unsconscious stunningly beautiful princess would think she's too beautiful to really kidnap rather than she's too beautiful not to eat her? Or worse...

You have prolly actually never looked at someone and just said, "WOW!!!" before.

And do you apply the same modifiers to ability scores when your characters are asleep? Becuase sleeping is practically unconsciousness.
Merry Christmas if you celebrate it!!!!!! =o)

 

[dkilgo]

You don't dream do you?

Actually there has been scientific proof that people in a comma do infact have brain activity. It is just thier body will not allow them to wake. IE: they dream...

I would have the STR, DEX, and CHR scores be the only scores dropped to 0. I would leave the attributes alone because they could still fight off mind influencing spells/powers because they still have brain activity. Granted they might not remember anything that transpired while they were unconscious, but they still get the ability to fight what ever mind influencing effect that might be wrought upon them. The CON issue has already dealt with. CHR is lowered to 0 because the majority of ones charisma is the waythe can interact with those around them. Not just looks. Looks help with charisma, but it is a common misconception that charisma is based off one's outwardly appearance. The person that is unconscious qould definitly have to be able to talk and move to display enough charisma to effect those around him in a positive light. Hence, CHR is lowered to 0.

 

[Li Shenron]

If your STR, DEX, INT, WIS and CHA become zero while you're unconscious then you're immune to many poisons and mind affecting spells. But you're not. An unconscious target can still be affected by a Charm Person and still be affected by "insanity mist" poison.

Greg

Why poisons? Isn't it EXACTLY because you have a Constitution that you may be affected by poisons? Undead and constructs are immune to poison beacuse they don't have a constitution, i.e. no organs in function, no blood going around, no breathing...

About mind-affecting spells, it's an interesting topic to discuss about : I tend to say that you shouldn't be affected by them when unconscious, but it can be correct by the rules that the spell affects you anyway, and if you become conscious before the end of the spell then you suffer the effects... what do you think?


Btw, as a very off-topic thing... when I dream you cannot believe how much more charismatic I become than when I am awake! I usually don't miss a single girl in my dreams... but in reality it's another story

 

[dkilgo]

I agree with you Li Shenron. If the spell is cast while the character is unconscious then when the character wakes the spell takes effect if the duration has not expired. I like it I tell you.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

"It takes effect when they wake up" doesn't really clarify all Will saves...

For instance, there's a Balor on the ground. It's dropping toward -10 fast, so your Cleric thinks fast and casts Dismissal on it (because, as you'll recall, Balors basically explode when they die.)

Now, Will negates for Dismissal... So, do you treat it any differently because it's unconscious? Does the spell automatically fail? Succeed? Take effect when it wakes up (but what if it doesn't wake up -- is it just "Boom?")

Personally, I would have it make the saving throw as normal... I've seen nothing in the rules to indicate that it shouldn't, and logically I can't picture the spell not working simply because the creature is dying... Or automatically working, for that matter.

By extension, I'd treat most Will saves the same way... You still have a mind while unconscious, it's just that you can't do anything with it. So in most cases, they wouldn't "take effect" until you awoke (assuming you did), but that's only because their effects wouldn't be at all visible.

I'd think the debate on the topic is interesting though, and I can see the arguments against mind-effecting spells working... Another odd scenario is Detect Thoughts: Even if it worked, what would you (as DM) describe?

 

[dkilgo]

"It takes effect when they wake up" doesn't really clarify all Will saves...

For instance, there's a Balor on the ground. It's dropping toward -10 fast, so your Cleric thinks fast and casts Dismissal on it (because, as you'll recall, Balors basically explode when they die.)

Now, Will negates for Dismissal... So, do you treat it any differently because it's unconscious? Does the spell automatically fail? Succeed? Take effect when it wakes up (but what if it doesn't wake up -- is it just "Boom?")

Personally, I would have it make the saving throw as normal... I've seen nothing in the rules to indicate that it shouldn't, and logically I can't picture the spell not working simply because the creature is dying... Or automatically working, for that matter.

By extension, I'd treat most Will saves the same way... You still have a mind while unconscious, it's just that you can't do anything with it. So in most cases, they wouldn't "take effect" until you awoke (assuming you did), but that's only because their effects wouldn't be at all visible.

I'd think the debate on the topic is interesting though, and I can see the arguments against mind-effecting spells working... Another odd scenario is Detect Thoughts: Even if it worked, what would you (as DM) describe?

To answer your question about Dismissal I will simply state that this spell has an instantaneous duration. Therefor if the creature in question's Wil save failed he is instantaneously wisked away to another plane with a 20% chance the plane is not his home plane.

To answer your question about Detect Thoughts I will simply state that I belive that the description is entirely up to the DM, and is based off that DM's personal view point of the affect of consiousness. Me personally I would just describe what I would think that the particular creature would possibly dream about. Possibly the thing is reliving the last few moments of wakefullness, or is dreaming of it's home. I know that the limits are endless for the role play in this scenario.

 

[Li Shenron]

[BFor instance, there's a Balor on the ground. It's dropping toward -10 fast, so your Cleric thinks fast and casts Dismissal on it (because, as you'll recall, Balors basically explode when they die.)

Now, Will negates for Dismissal... So, do you treat it any differently because it's unconscious? Does the spell automatically fail? Succeed? Take effect when it wakes up (but what if it doesn't wake up -- is it just "Boom?")

Personally, I would have it make the saving throw as normal... I've seen nothing in the rules to indicate that it shouldn't, and logically I can't picture the spell not working simply because the creature is dying... Or automatically working, for that matter.
[/B]

I see your point, playing your way is definitely fair. I would prefer to make the Balor have Wis mod -5 to reflect more the meaning of "willpower": he's unconscious, so he can't try to resist much in an active way. I still think my idea is not completely awful, but surely not better than yours

 

[Artoomis]

Did ANYONE even read my earlier post? The game effects of being unconscious are clear. Anything else (changes to Will saves, etc.) are most certainly HOUSE RULES and should be discussed that forum, not here. Ths is the place to discuss what happens, within the rules, when you go unconscious. That's been answered because the rules actually define it as a condition and give full rules for dealing with that state.

End of story.