Dex vs. Str

[DarkMaster]

Our group eliminated Weapon Finesse. You may now use either your Dex or Str modifier for your attack roll, whichever is higher.

We made the change for the following reason:

1. We didn't think a Dex based fighter should have to waste a feat just to keep up with a Strength based fighter. The Strength based fighter already has a huge advantage in damage output.

3. It fit better with novel versions of fast fighters. It's obvious that warriors like Drizz't and Artemis Entreri rely on their dexterity for martial prowess, yet in the game they would be getting their collective asses handed to them by Strength based fighters. Alot of people complain about novelists not keeping up with the rules, but I sometimes feel the game designers aren't keeping up with the novels or utilizing game mechanics that fit the reality of combat.

I don't agree using dex requires much training than str. Look at the average kid playing sword they rely on str much more than dex to hit you. As a kid I always tried to hit as hard as I could on the other kid padding hopping to hurt him.

Seriously, Did you ever fence? relying on your agility only to hit someone in his weak spot his not as easy as beating someone as hard as you can with a baseball bat. Also I have a two handed sword at home and frankly I wonder how I could fence with it. In order for someone to use dex for someone with a non finessable weapon I would require an improve finesse feat with that weapon (ala 3.0).

 

[Pax]

I was thinking of the extra attack granted by frenzy for that second +42.

OH - I missed that entirely. Eek. ^_^ My bad, then.

*cough*Frenzied Berzerker*cough*
(Only kidding - personally I find the FB to be massively broken, but of course YMMV )

Heh. Well, Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker *is* the "most blatantly obvious" choice for a strong thud-and-blunder style character.

Finesse hasn't as many obvious choices, aside form picking up 7+ levels of Duellist. A Rogue/Duellist could be very scary; Rogue(5)/Invisible Blade(5)/Duellist(10) ... *shudder* ... with infinite Free-action Feinting, +8d6 sneak attack, and an obscene AC ... as long as his targetis subject to sneak attack damage, his target is gonna be VERY much in a *world* of hurt.

This is an interesting one (as it's never come up for me) but it seems dex can be used to resist an overrun. How does that one work then?

I wasn't thinking in terms of an overrun, but merely in terms of "you gotta get through ME to try and swing at HIM" positioning issues. If the BBEG is on a horse, then just standing there is kinda stupid - but an AoO to trip the mount would be a sensible action, n'est-ce pas?

 

[Randy]

Str vs. Dex 2

Ok i am the person who started this whole strength vs Dex topic.... And through everyones postings ive been reading ive come up with a possible idea on how to even things out in the whole issue between to the two types. Basic idea is drop the whole dex to hit and dam or str to hit and dam. Use the Dex to do all the hitting so it evens it out and use the Str purely for doing damage. After all if you are trying to hit a exact area on someone your not being a dumb brute and trying to hit harder to hit the exact spot. And i believe that is the whole point of rolling the D20 to figure out if you hit or not..... If i did have all to do with strength who would need to actually roll a dice..... Heck there big and they are in front of you how much more do you need. aka strength is not what we really use in close combat vs. ranged.


So to some it up use Dex in all cases to hitting and str in all cases for damage what does everyone think?

Randy
P.s. dont mind the rambling it is late!!!!!!!

 

[Celtavian]

I don't agree using dex requires much training than str. Look at the average kid playing sword they rely on str much more than dex to hit you. As a kid I always tried to hit as hard as I could on the other kid padding hopping to hurt him.

Seriously, Did you ever fence? relying on your agility only to hit someone in his weak spot his not as easy as beating someone as hard as you can with a baseball bat. Also I have a two handed sword at home and frankly I wonder how I could fence with it. In order for someone to use dex for someone with a non finessable weapon I would require an improve finesse feat with that weapon (ala 3.0).

In an abstract D&D combat system, fighters are considered to have trained a good portion of their lives. That is what their Base Attack, martial proficiencies and feats are for. A fighter who was not strong would not train to take advantage of Strength. He would lose all too often.

If a person wants to make a quick fighter, there is no reason to force them to take an extra feat. Why should a Dex based fighter have to give up a feat compared to a Str based fighter? One less feat and your already using a less advantageous stat for melee combat than Str.

 

[Celtavian]

re

My thoughts exactly. I've been trying to make Dex LESS important, not more important.

Cheers
Nell.

Incorrect Assumption. Str covers Carrying Capacity and lifting. Str is used to initiative Bull Rush and Trip attempts. Str applies to grappling. Str also applies to breaking and forcing open objects.

With the new 3.5 DR rules, Str has become even more important because damage is at a premium for punching through DR.

Str: Attack, Damage, Bull Rush and Trip attempts, Grappling, Forcing and Breaking objects.

5 different applications for Strength.

I wanted to make Dex relatively equal to Str because it applies only to Reflex saves, initiative checks, and armor class (often reduced by maximum dexterity penalties on armor).

Dex: Reflex saves, initiative checks, and armor class.

Three applications for Dexterity.

Adding attack for Dexterity does not make it unbalanced. It makes Str and Dex more equal. Str based fighters generally have a huge advantage for Dex based fighters.

 

[Ranger REG]

Why not remove both Str and Dex and use one attribute (Fight)? It will take care ranged and melee attacks plus any physical damage as well as formerly Str- & Dex-based skill checks and Reflex saving throws?

 

[Celtavian]

re

Why not remove both Str and Dex and use one attribute (Fight)? It will take care ranged and melee attacks plus any physical damage as well as formerly Str- & Dex-based skill checks and Reflex saving throws?

I would never get rid of Str and Dex. I just wish D&D would change to the Dex based combat system just about every other major game system uses. Off the top of my head I think only D20 games use Str as the modifier for melee combat. Other game systems such as GURPS and Hero System use Dex for attacking and Str for damage, which is closer to the reality of physical combat.

An average of the Str and Dex bonus would simulate this very well. I would be up for it, in fact I was up for it. The other people I game with were unwilling to do the work of refiguring all the Attack/Full Attack blocks necessary for running monsters. This was the best compromise I could get them to agree to, and it gives me some measure of satisfaction that people can make quick sword wielders that use blades other than Rapiers.

I was really bothered that the most powerful fighters were often huge, burly men with Strengths exceeding 18 plus wielding Greataxes and Greatswords. Sure you could build a viable dex based fighter that deals some nice damage and is reasonably hard to hit, but nothing beats the two-handed weapon brute with the high strengh (especially with the new Power Attack). The current solution allows the building of a more viable dex based fighter. I like to encourage variability.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Dex: Reflex saves, initiative checks, and armor class.

Three applications for Dexterity.

... ranged attacks?

-Hyp.

 

[Bauglir]

I wasn't thinking in terms of an overrun, but merely in terms of "you gotta get through ME to try and swing at HIM" positioning issues. If the BBEG is on a horse, then just standing there is kinda stupid - but an AoO to trip the mount would be a sensible action, n'est-ce pas?

With his low strength, and taking a -8 penalty (large creature, 4 legs) he's not too likely to succeed with that - at least since he can use his dex to defend against the counter-trip he probably won't end up on the floor himself though

I see the opinion all the time on these boards that light dextrous fighters and monks are very good for maneuvering into position and using special attack actions such as trips or grapples. It's been my experience though that since these actions are based largely on strength, the dex fighter only maneuvers themself into position to fail miserably a lot, if they try that.

 

[Darklone]

Comparisons to real world fighting a la "Dex is more important to hit than pure raw strength". It's not true. Get a real sword or rapier (not these fencing wires = featherdusters) and try. To hit well (or at all), you need precise and controlled strikes, not whipping around. E.g. you need Strength. Dex striking will only damage your weapon and open you up for counter-attacks.

Just stop to imagine these strength fighters as blokes with baseball bats and you'll be fine.