TSR Did TSR Sue Regularly?

Shannon Appelcline (Designers & Dragons) talks about it here! With infographics!

"Every company interacts with the rest of the industry in a different way. For Chaosium it's been more than 40 years of licensing, while Target Games created and defined roleplaying in its home country of Sweden. Dave Nalle's Ragnarok Enterprises instead influenced designers and publishers through interactions in A&Eand Abyss. As for TSR, the founder of our industry: as wags have put it: they sue regularly."

Advanced Designers & Dragons #47: TSR Connections: Licenses & Lawsuits - RPGnet

They also sued WotC once!

 

[Cameron Guill]

Not only the crates of 1E goods, a lot of the leatherette books and boxed sets, to my understanding, cost more to make than they were charging for them.

It’s also my understanding that it was the novels & dragon dice that put the final nail in the coffin. The latter sold great initial (heck, I bought some), but quickly petered out.

I’d be curious to know how they fared with their various card games - in particular, the god-awful low-effort Spellfire game. I suspect they lost a lot during the CCG craze they tried to get into.

I bought some Spellfire and Dragon Dice. Heck, until fairly recently, my black Dragon Dice bag was still in use for my normal D&D dice bag. Spellfire was pretty terrible. It was all IP and no decent mechanics. It felt like a kids game. They also did BloodWars CCG, which I invested way too much in because Planescape and the artwork.

I was working in a gaming shop at the time and Spellfire sold well for about a month or two then you couldn't get it. BloodWars was available but no one bought it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Not about TSR sueing others, but I remember when in 1982 they destroyed SPI (who had been pretty much the champion of hex-wargames for a decade or so, producing lots of great games).

I never forgave them for that, and abandoned them for other game systems - they never got a penny more of my money.

It’s quite likely that the majority of people haven’t even heard of SPI nowadays, let alone played their games, but I still love the odd game of Outreach, Sorcerer, War in the Ice, Freedom in the Galaxy, Battlefleet Mars and others!

Let's not forget the Dawn of the Dead game, Time Tripper or the Monster That Ate Sheyboygan.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Not about TSR sueing others, but I remember when in 1982 they destroyed SPI (who had been pretty much the champion of hex-wargames for a decade or so, producing lots of great games).

I never forgave them for that, and abandoned them for other game systems - they never got a penny more of my money.

It’s quite likely that the majority of people haven’t even heard of SPI nowadays, let alone played their games, but I still love the odd game of Outreach, Sorcerer, War in the Ice, Freedom in the Galaxy, Battlefleet Mars and others!

I remain a huge fan of the implied setting of DragonQuest. The details hidden amongst the rules scattered through the book (which is how you did it back then) were evocative. Like, what was the deal with the implied rivalry/intrigue between the Colleges of Magic? What was the deal with truesilver; was it the same as Tolkien's mithril or something different? The Frontiers of Alusia book was deliberately set on the fringes of the setting, so it didn't really delve into the kind of details I wanted. It's been twenty yearsforty years and I've never seen online where anybody with any of the original setting details has shared any of them. I suspect they are lost to time.

 

[David Howery]

Not about TSR sueing others, but I remember when in 1982 they destroyed SPI (who had been pretty much the champion of hex-wargames for a decade or so, producing lots of great games).

uh... did TSR take an active hand in knocking down SPI? I'd always had the idea that SPI kinda imploded on it's own, and TSR ended up with chunks of it due to various loans and stuff (IIRC, AH ended up with some chunks of SPI too)....

 

[Deset Gled]

uh... did TSR take an active hand in knocking down SPI? I'd always had the idea that SPI kinda imploded on it's own, and TSR ended up with chunks of it due to various loans and stuff (IIRC, AH ended up with some chunks of SPI too)....

Yes, TSR took down SPI. Here's a link I'm sure I got from this site but don't know who to credit it to: SPI Died for Your Sins

But also, yes, SPI had other problems. The article above goes into some of their debt issues. While TSR started the chain reaction, there's no guarantee something else wouldn't have. And, IMNSHO, the tabletop war game market was not sustainable with computer games and other factors. SPI was definitely facing hard times looking into the new millennium. TSR did the job of knocking them out before we got to see if they would have imploded or evolved.

 

[darjr]

SPI Died for Your Sins

Edit: I was going to say essentially the same. Beaten to the punch.

 

[darjr]

SPI was desperate to make payroll. That’s really bad. They needed that, relatively speaking, small loan or not make payroll. But yea TSR did them wrong, in my humble opinion.

 

[David Howery]

Yes, TSR took down SPI. Here's a link I'm sure I got from this site but don't know who to credit it to: SPI Died for Your Sins

okay, that's the whole story of which I'd only heard parts of before. Along with killing SPI, the whole fiasco seemed to be yet another drain on TSR's cash... they'd have been better off staying out of the whole thing...

 

[RealAlHazred]

Keep in mind, TSR also killed GDW, which was one of the few other wargaming companies of the era.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Keep in mind that at the time there were at least some people who thought DragonQuest might end up being a genuine competitor to D&D. I don't know if any of them were inside TSR, but if there were, that might have seemed to be a two-birds, one-stone thing.

 

[darjr]

I have a copy of DragonQuest. Only got it recently and wanted a copy from back when. I don’t think it was ever a real competitor.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I have a copy of DragonQuest. Only got it recently and wanted a copy from back when. I don’t think it was ever a real competitor.

Things were viewed differently in the early 80's. In light of later events, I suspect you're right, but it was far less obvious at that point. Its certainly hard to argue that it was more complicated on the whole than pure-quill AD&D1e for example, though the SPI boardgame style rules arrangement may seem pretty alien to a modern reader.

 

[darjr]

The layout of the rules would have been a lure for me. Much like the layout of Traveller. It just seemed more...... planed and developed.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

The layout of the rules would have been a lure for me. Much like the layout of Traveller. It just seemed more...... planed and developed.

Section 1 Combat
1.1 A player who moves units into an enemy's ZOC has initiated Combat unless he can exit the ZOC by not moving across contiguous ZOC (see Zone of Control).
1.2
1.3
1.3.1
1.3.2

Arghhhhh!!!

Yes. SPI had some great games... BUT...

 

[darjr]

in my defense I was studying assembler for three different architectures at the time.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

in my defense I was studying assembler for three different architectures at the time.

I'm a product of my product!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I have a copy of DragonQuest. Only got it recently and wanted a copy from back when. I don’t think it was ever a real competitor.

It certainly could have SEEMED like it was one to people who didn't actually play RPGs, like business people/managers...

My Sister bought a copy and we played the game off and on for a while. There were some interesting features, but mostly there was a lot of combat rules, many many many combat rules, and the total sum of it all was not really so much of a playable RPG. I mostly recall that everything you did was dangerous. Swing a sword, you were pretty likely to lop off one your own limbs. Cast a spell (my character as some sort of necromantic type caster) and you were more likely to do yourself in than harm the enemy. Ultimately, the level-based progression system at the core of D&D was just MORE FUN. So we went back to AD&D and forgot about DQ.

Overall it wasn't a particularly great system. RQ's skill-based design was simpler and the game was more evocative. Other games like RM did pretty much the same thing, but better. Skill-based systems were basically a dime-a-dozen, and SPI would have had to really develop some innovative mechanics, plus a more evocative milieu, to capture some of the FRPG market from TSR. I doubt they made money on DQ.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It certainly could have SEEMED like it was one to people who didn't actually play RPGs, like business people/managers...

I think this seriously understimates the tolerance of the gaming public at the time for relatively dense rules. Keep in mind this was the 80's, and that was about as common as not during that period.

My Sister bought a copy and we played the game off and on for a while. There were some interesting features, but mostly there was a lot of combat rules, many many many combat rules, and the total sum of it all was not really so much of a playable RPG. I mostly recall that everything you did was dangerous. Swing a sword, you were pretty likely to lop off one your own limbs. Cast a spell (my character as some sort of necromantic type caster) and you were more likely to do yourself in than harm the enemy. Ultimately, the level-based progression system at the core of D&D was just MORE FUN. So we went back to AD&D and forgot about DQ.

Overall it wasn't a particularly great system. RQ's skill-based design was simpler and the game was more evocative. Other games like RM did pretty much the same thing, but better. Skill-based systems were basically a dime-a-dozen, and SPI would have had to really develop some innovative mechanics, plus a more evocative milieu, to capture some of the FRPG market from TSR. I doubt they made money on DQ.

There were definitely some problems, but again, I think you're underestimating things like how much attraction their could be to its colorful (if, as you say, overly risky) magic system and the way the skills were presented as quasi-professions.

Again, I think its easy to say in hindsight that it wasn't likely to go anywhere, but I don't think that was at all clear at the time.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Really it's not germane to the OP, but I'll mention the Colleges of Magic were really interesting. In a game where every character was an adept by default, that was a necessity, but they had really good flavor. They were like this:

The Thaumaturgies: These colleges practice the manipulation of mana (Arcane energy) through well-researched spells, to produce a variety of subtle effects.

• The College of Ensorcelments and Enchantments: This College is concerned with general magic, but especially with charming and enchanting individuals and objects.
• The College of Sorceries of the Mind: The College of Sorceries of the Mind is concerned with the manipulation of the mental powers of sentient beings.
• The College of Illusions: The College of Illusions is concerned with the creation of stimuli designed to fool the senses of an observer so that he will accept the existence of what is in fact nonexistent.
• The College of Naming Incantations: Members of the College of Naming Incantations (Namers) specialize in the knowledge of the True Names of objects and entities. They are expert counter-spellers.

The Elementals: These colleges learn to weave mana into forms which can manipulate the ebb and flow of elemental powers. The practitioners of these arts must be in contact with their element to use their powers to best effect; in some cases, lack of contact may mean the spell fails to function at all.

• The College of Air Magics: The College of Air Magics concerns the shaping of the powers of the element of air.
• The College of Water Magics: The College of Water Magics is concerned with the shaping of the powers of the element of water.
• The College of Fire Magics: The College of Fire Magics is concerned with the shaping of the element of Fire.
• The College of Earth Magics: The College of Earth Magics is concerned with the shaping of the powers of the earth itself and of those entities and things that are rooted in the earth or in contact with it. There are two separate divisions of the College: Druidical Earth Mages and Pacifistic Earth Mages.
• The College of Celestial Magics: The College of Celestial Magics is concerned with the practice of those magic arts having to do with shadow, night, and the stars. There are three distinct divisions of the College: The Star Mages, The Dark Mages, and The Shadow Weavers.

The Entities: These Colleges utilize the powers of entities and objects from other planes of existence.

• The College of Necromantic Conjurations: The College of Necromantic Conjurations is concerned with the processes of life, death, decay, and putrefaction.
• The College of Black Magics: The College of Black Magics is organized somewhat differently from the other Colleges in that its knowledge is available only to those who make various pacts with the Powers of Darkness. Once made, a Pact of this College other than the First Pact may never be renounced.
• The College of Greater Summonings: The College of Greater Summonings is concerned exclusively with the summoning and controlling of entities from other dimensions. Members of this College possess no Talent or Spell Magic – their power lies exclusively in their ability to summon and control beings via the performance of special Rituals.
• The College of Summoning: The College of Summoning is generally concerned with summoning, conjuring, and binding entities of the same plane as the Adept and with establishing communications with such entities. All summoning and bindings of his College are a form of Spell Magic. Conjurations are a form of Ritual Magic, and establishing communication can be accomplished by either Spell or Talent Magic.
• The College of Shaping Magics: The College of Shaping Magics is concerned with the fashioning and animation of non-living matter, with the construction of enchantment of an enduring nature and, most importantly, with the creation of potent magical items.
• The College of Rune Magics: The College of Rune Magics is concerned with the use of special symbols of power to shape mana into desired forms. In addition to the power of the Runes themselves, part of the power of this College derives from the use of special materials to construct the Runewands and Runesticks into which the Runes are usually inscribed

The College of Summonings, the College of Shaping Magics, and the College of Rune Magics were added by TSR for their 3rd edition; they removed The College of Black Magics and the College of Greater Summonings, because they were still trying to distance themselves from the Satanic Panic.

And then they killed the line and never released anything else. I know it wasn't that popular, and probably wouldn't have gone that far, but it was popular enough that (IIRC) there is still a group of about 40 gamers in Australia who have maintained a campaign for 30ish years.

 

[GreyLord]

SPI Died for Your Sins

Edit: I was going to say essentially the same. Beaten to the punch.

I suspect there's a untold story that many have not heard.

Revenge is a dish best served cold...and it was served cold to many a wargame company...


(PS: Not fact, but interesting things to think about...D&D was spit upon and cast out by many a wargamer and wargaming company when they were first trying to get established. Some of those individuals were also then or later heads of wargaming companies that...interestingly enough were put into the target sites of one T$R...coincidence?)

Edit: That said, I tend to like some of those wargaming companies, even if you look at some (not all) of the people that were major players at some of them who tried to kill D&D in it's infancy.