Different XP progressions as a means of class balance?

[Hassassin]

I thought creating your character meant choosing what you want to do with that character. How does choosing your class at creation cause you to loose control of your character?

The farmboy who has to fight things and later discovers his magical abilities is a very common fantasy trope that D&D should support.

Other kinds of changes in character focus are also very common in the literature and IMO best represented in the game using multi-classing. Examples include joining a monastery, wowing to never use magic again, finding a swordplay teacher, a thief joining a more reputable organisation (magical or otherwise), etc.

 

[Yora]

If some class levels are more valuable than others, then adjusting the XP needed to get them is entirely the opposite of what should be done.

If a 10th level wizard is as powerful as a 15th level fighter, then stretch the abilities of the wizard out over 15 levels. That's the important step they forgot when making the classes for 3rd Edition.

 

[Blackwarder]

Absolutely yes! (because having skimmed through the thread some body has to say it)

Warder

 

[Mishihari Lord]

XP is an metagame measurement for players, it shouldn't have any in-game function. Spells shouldn't cause you to lose/gain it/cost it, and classes shouldn't progress at different rates through it.

Um, no. XP simulates expertise gained through experience. Nothing meta about that.

 

[Hassassin]

Just a thought, but maybe they need to use XP charts to allow different kinds of class balance.

For example, suppose classes are by default balanced over the three pillars so that a 5th level fighter is better in combat than a 5th level rogue, but worse in exploration or interaction.

They could offer alternative XP charts to balance characters in any one pillar. Run a heavy combat game with little opportunity to shine in other kinds of situations? Use the combat balance tables. A heavy exploration campaign with some combat but almost no interaction? The exploration balance tables are your best bet.

If a 5th level fighter about as effective in combat as a 7th level rogue, then the combat XP table would have e.g. 10k XP take a fighter to 5th and a rogue to 7th level.

 

[billd91]

It often gets treated that way these days (3e & especially 4e D&D), but the original conception was both simulationist and gamist - pre-3e it was both a gamist scoring system AND a simulationist measure of an individual player character's in-world experience and personal power. It definitely was NOT purely metagame, and saying so doesn't make it so.

I don't think any of that keeps XPs from not being an entirely metagame structure. They were something concrete to the game system but also something PCs couldn't wrap their brains around. PCs may intend to broaden their experiences and succeed in doing so, but they wouldn't have a concept of an increasing explicit score.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It often gets treated that way these days (3e & especially 4e D&D), but the original conception was both simulationist and gamist - pre-3e it was both a gamist scoring system AND a simulationist measure of an individual player character's in-world experience and personal power. It definitely was NOT purely metagame, and saying so doesn't make it so.

In this conception it is perhaps slightly less metagame-y, but it's still a concept with no real meaning. I can conceptualize a person as having Strength or Intelligence. I can figure what their hide in shadows would be, or their fortitude save. But what does "experience points" translate to in the real world? We can see the effects of gaining experience, but I don't think that level or XP have much meaning, they're just here to make the game work.

 

[Hassassin]

In this conception it is perhaps slightly less metagame-y, but it's still a concept with no real meaning. I can conceptualize a person as having Strength or Intelligence. I can figure what their hide in shadows would be, or their fortitude save. But what does "experience points" translate to in the real world? We can see the effects of gaining experience, but I don't think that level or XP have much meaning, they're just here to make the game work.

I think XP has meaning the same way Strength score does. Both are abstract numbers, but they have implications. Strength 18 means you can drag a half-ton object. 3000 XP means you can handle two trained swordsmen at the same time.

The meaning of both can change due to other things. Strength 18 lets you carry more stuff if you are Large. 3000 XP means different things to a wizard.

(1k post)

 

[Dausuul]

It's utterly pointless to me.

To take an example from 2E, the wizard reaches level 2 at 2500 XP. The thief reaches level 2 at 1250 XP, and level 3 at 2500 XP. Now compare it with a system, call it 2+iE, in which both reach level 2 at 2500 XP, but the level 2 thief in 2+iE has the exact same stats and abilities as the level 3 thief in 2E.

Functionally, the only difference between the systems is that the 2E thief has an extra level increment in between 0 XP and 2500 XP. However, the 2+iE system is simpler, vastly easier to design and balance, and has characters of the same level being roughly on par with each other. It even makes it possible to dispense with XP entirely if the group doesn't want to bother with it.

As for whether XP is a metagame concept or not, I don't see why it matters, because levels surely are. It doesn't matter what numeric label you slap on a package of stats and abilities. All that matters is how long it takes you to get that package. Whether it's level 10 or level 15 or level 20, if it costs the same amount of XP, you'll get to it at the same time, so why not put the same level-label on it?

 

[Sunseeker]

Um, no. XP simulates expertise gained through experience. Nothing meta about that.

I disagree. Expertise gained through experience would be specific to skills and abilities. To a lot of talking? Your Charisma and Diplomacy improve. Do a lot of fighting? Your Strength and weapon-skill improves, you don't get general new abilities, you need specific training for that.