jgbrowning
Hero
JChung2003 said:
I always recommend expeditious retreat.
joe b.
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Dire Tigers CR is WRONG.....
- Thread starter LGodamus
- Start date
I always recommend expeditious retreat.
joe b.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
The real lesson is you should be very careful about throwing a monster with a CR two higher than the party. That is likely to be a tough fight, with a good chance of deaths. Far safer to throw two CR 6 beasties at them instead.
LokiDR has is exactly right. PCs should not go toe to toe with the Dire Tiger if possible.
The dumb grunt monsters have HD roughly twice their CR, and their size and Str scores rachet up as well. The raw offense of these beasts is scaling up faster than a PC. You have hit them where their defenses are weak: magic. Yes, their saves are strong. But there is lots of magic (Web, Darkness, fogs, Fly, Invisibility, etc.) that will slow them down enough to allow you to soften them up before it closes.
BTW, it should be obvious that if the Dire Tiger can ambush the 6th level party, a few PC deaths are nearly guaranteed.
An 8th level party would have many options for dealing with this thing. They could beat it toe to toe in 2-3 rounds, although that would burn a lot of healing -- hope they have wands of CLW. Best choice would be to buy a round or two with a Wall of Fire or similar barrier, and prep up for killing it at range.
LokiDR has is exactly right. PCs should not go toe to toe with the Dire Tiger if possible.
The dumb grunt monsters have HD roughly twice their CR, and their size and Str scores rachet up as well. The raw offense of these beasts is scaling up faster than a PC. You have hit them where their defenses are weak: magic. Yes, their saves are strong. But there is lots of magic (Web, Darkness, fogs, Fly, Invisibility, etc.) that will slow them down enough to allow you to soften them up before it closes.
BTW, it should be obvious that if the Dire Tiger can ambush the 6th level party, a few PC deaths are nearly guaranteed.
An 8th level party would have many options for dealing with this thing. They could beat it toe to toe in 2-3 rounds, although that would burn a lot of healing -- hope they have wands of CLW. Best choice would be to buy a round or two with a Wall of Fire or similar barrier, and prep up for killing it at range.
I find that often the problem is not the CR, but the willingness of a DM to assume that the CR is totally valid for all encounters, regardless of party members or environment.
If you took 10 different lvl6 parties, and set them against a Dire Tiger, in various terrain, the CR would probably work out about right. (Probably, I have not done this) But that means that the party based on ground melee will lose some/all characters, and the flying mage type party will pass without thinking about it.
Plus, you have to be careful when going higher CR's, especially if you are doing it because of a large party. (ie. if the DM thought it would be 'equal' since you have 7 characters at 6lvl)
It is up to the DM to see that most CR8 creatures will be pretty difficult for a lvl6 party; but because of the nature of the *party* and environment, some will be easier/harder than others.
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If you took 10 different lvl6 parties, and set them against a Dire Tiger, in various terrain, the CR would probably work out about right. (Probably, I have not done this) But that means that the party based on ground melee will lose some/all characters, and the flying mage type party will pass without thinking about it.
Plus, you have to be careful when going higher CR's, especially if you are doing it because of a large party. (ie. if the DM thought it would be 'equal' since you have 7 characters at 6lvl)
It is up to the DM to see that most CR8 creatures will be pretty difficult for a lvl6 party; but because of the nature of the *party* and environment, some will be easier/harder than others.
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
WotC uses a CR-guesstimator, which means that some CRs are not accurate. *Sigh*
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Coredump said:
I want to (re)emphasize Coredump's point.
Most of the grunt monsters have a good chance of instantly killing a PC with level 2 or 3 less than the CR of the critter if they are allowed to use their preferred tactics. Frex, a Dire Tiger will do an average of 47 points of damage if all attacks hit on the pounce, and I haven't considered crits -- which aren't rare when you have 3 or 5 attack rolls. An average 6th level Cleric with 14 Con has 42 HPs.
A party of eight 5th level characters may look like an effective party of 7th level. Not too bad against a CR 8 creature, right? Just don't be surprised if a Dire Tiger easily squishes two PCs before it is even warmed up.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Something I've found that works for me, DMing a large party - rather than using creatures of higher CR, use creatures of the same CR, but give them max hit points instead of average hit points.
You don't end up using monsters with special attacks or defences that the party simply cannot handle... but the monsters you do use hang around those two or three rounds longer to make the PCs work for it a little harder.
-Hyp.
You don't end up using monsters with special attacks or defences that the party simply cannot handle... but the monsters you do use hang around those two or three rounds longer to make the PCs work for it a little harder.
-Hyp.
Hmmm . . . Well, let me begin by saying DUH! The WotC system for CR SUCKS! In fact, I would indeed call it worthless. Go to the following link to find a damn good system for CR and the such, one that is, for all intent and purporses, NIGH FLAWLESS!
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49808
Anyway, based on my calculations, the Dire Tiger should have been a 50/50 challenge. It rates at CR 12.2, making it CR 12/EL 15. A Level 6 party is EL 11.
Anyway, there you have it. A 50/50 encounter. Done right, it's winnable, but you could lose people easily. It certainly is NOT what the book says it is, that's for sure!
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49808
Anyway, based on my calculations, the Dire Tiger should have been a 50/50 challenge. It rates at CR 12.2, making it CR 12/EL 15. A Level 6 party is EL 11.
Anyway, there you have it. A 50/50 encounter. Done right, it's winnable, but you could lose people easily. It certainly is NOT what the book says it is, that's for sure!
Last edited:
Gyr said:
Hehehe . . . To be perfectly honest, this is actually one of the WORST CR mistakes in any of the books. Any DM who believes that CR 11 crap is a total idiot! I'm sorry, but a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion WILL (not might, WILL) bring about a TPK EVERY SINGLE TIME against a Level 11 party with no exceptions. This is an impossible encounter.
A Level 11 party is PEL 14. Wanna guess the ACTUAL CR of the Colossal Monstrous Scorpion? Try 41.4! That's right, it's CR 41.4/EL 22! Lemme put this is simpler terms . . . A Level 20-23 party (PEL 18) is needed for the PCs to have even a 50/50 chance against one of these. A Level 40-47 (PEL 22) party is needed for the PCs to be able to handle one of these as a standard encounter.
So to say it again, only an idiot DM would dare to throw one at a Level 11 party. CR 11 they are not!
Note: To see how I got these numbers, follow the link I posted in my previous post.
Perhaps, but when that party of average 11 level is not surprised the scorpion will be dead or avoided without much difficulty. First of all, the smart cleric will have a delay poison ready (highly underrated spell btw). The mage will have a couple of fly spells and with a bit of intelligence a stoneskin on the fighter. Since by that time a fighter can deal about 100 damage per round. Of course, if they have an archer in the group it will be a simple matter of flying and raining death on the creature. Remember, the creature has no intelligence and it should be played as such. Though I do agree that it probably should be higher CR and it is definitely not something to use as a random encounter.
When I started playing 3rd edition, I thought CR was crap as well. After three years of experience, I have learned CR works quite well (also the CRs given in the MM) for most monsters. CRs will always be guesses though, since the composition of the party, their spell selection and the environment will have quite an impact on the final challenge of the encounter.
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