D&D 4E Disarm in 4E

[Trebor62]

I think being able to disarm as an immediate reaction is better than being able to disarm as a standard action. I also would say that the result of being disarmed (weapon at target's feet) is the result of a successful disarm action.

Just to be clear I'm talking about the Kou-Tau's immediate reaction Sticky Shield disarm ability.

The Kou-Tau's immediate reaction first requires a missed melee attack on it, then it gets to attempt its immediate reaction to disarm. If that is successful the attacker can still most likely recover his weapon with a minor action before the end of there turn leaving them still armed.

A disarm as a standard action allows someone to attack and disarm with one roll and leave them disarmed until there next turn. Thats much more potient.

 

[Garthanos]

You seriously think that's a broken combo? It relies on someone missing, someone else readying an action which has to hit, and then the kuo-toa has to spend a standard action to kick away the implement. And a pit or water or something needs to be nearby, otherwise he'll get his implement back.

It's also legit and, it seems, the designers meant for that combo to exist.

No I was using it is an indicator of your motivation behind wanting the player controlled standard action version which lets somebody easily snag the weapon out from under the target without any opportunity by the one most likely to have it.... sorry if I was judging your motivation incorrectly since that doesn't seem entirely to be the case. you realize the immediate reaction leaves the one disarmed immediate opportunity to recover from the state... where as a standard does not.

 

[Garthanos]

what is the recharge on the Kuotoa ability?

 

[LostSoul]

A disarm as a standard action allows someone to attack and disarm with one roll and leave them disarmed until there next turn. Thats much more potient.

Yeah, I missed that! I still think it's probably about the same. On the one hand, if the PC misses a Kuo-Toa and still has a minor action, he can pick up his weapon. (Charging Kuo-Toa may be a bad idea!) On the other hand, the Kuo-Toa can act normally - that means dealing damage - each round, while the at-will disarmer can't.

The at-will disarmer, if he has a buddy who can move the target (or is willing to spend an AP), might be able to get rid of the weapon before the target can do anything about it. Then again, the target might have an ally who picks up the weapon before the at-will disarmer can do anything about it.

No I was using it is an indicator of your motivation behind wanting the player controlled standard action version which lets somebody easily snag the weapon out from under the target without any opportunity by the one most likely to have it.... sorry if I was judging your motivation incorrectly since that doesn't seem to be the case.

My motiviation is to put the fiction of the game ahead of the mechanics. If you think disarm is reasonable, then you should be able to attempt it, and it should have some impact on the outcome of the encounter.

(If disarm doesn't seem reasonable, resolve it that way: "That makes no sense." I would have trouble seeing a halfling disarm a giant, or anyone disarming a phantom warrior who wasn't also a ghost.)

If that means monsters who rely on weapons are weaker, I'd rather just lower their XP award by a level's worth or two instead of saying, "No disarms", or "The only way to disarm someone is to kill them".

 

[Trebor62]

No recharge its an immediate reaction to a missed melee attack on a Kou-Tua Marauder or Harpooner. Immediate reaction restrictions would apply.

 

[Trebor62]

Yeah, I missed that! I still think it's probably about the same.


You and I see things differently which is fine.

 

[Tai]

What would really work is to have the Marauder run past a Warlock with a pact blade, drawing an OA, while the Harpooner has a readied action to reel him in. Then the Marauder kicks the pact blade into the water. Bye-bye implement!

For starters, you can't make immediate reactions on your own turn, so it wouldn't work. Secondly, would you as a DM seriously unleash a combo that a PC has no way of knowing about that would permanently deprive them of their magic weapon? The monster has a powerful ability, which is clearly not intended to be used in this way, and shouldn't be used as evidence to say that it should be usable by PCs. If you wanted to beat on the PCs, you could stat a level-appropriate encounter made entirely of artillery, and have them all attack the party's controller until he's dead. The point of being DM is that you have powerful tools at your disposal, but you use it to entertain the players, not punish them.

 

[Garthanos]

If that means monsters who rely on weapons are weaker, I'd rather just lower their XP award by a level's worth or two instead of saying, "No disarms", or "The only way to disarm someone is to kill them".

Read hitpoints description a couple times... then rephrase the above sentence.
"The only way to fully disarm a hero or villain that isnt almost exhausted and out of luck" is to wear them out til they are.

I might actually think kuotoas ability might in almost exactly the same form be as a an encounter power a reasonable Riposting Disarm. It might have no chance of working against an opponent with a magical weapon without postulating a different world (but my game world isnt 100% = default setting) but since I would approve a pc designed low level ritual that made there weapon cling to there grip in less than a heart beat.. this might not be one of those areas my setting is different.

A minor action on ones own turn to do something so immediate as recover the weapon you were already trying to keep hold of... I wouldnt make interuptable by anyones held action.

 

[LostSoul]

For starters, you can't make immediate reactions on your own turn, so it wouldn't work.

Good catch, I forget about that all the time.

Secondly, would you as a DM seriously unleash a combo that a PC has no way of knowing about that would permanently deprive them of their magic weapon?

Yes, yes I would. (Monster knowledge checks, though.)

 

[LostSoul]

Read hitpoints description a couple times... then rephrase the above sentence.
"The only way to fully disarm a hero or villain that isnt almost exhausted and out of luck" is to wear them out til they are.

Right, I get that, but that means disarm has no influence on how the encounter plays out.