D&D 4E Disarm in 4E

[Garthanos]

Right, I get that, but that means disarm has no influence on how the encounter plays out.

It gives my players another method of not killing every enemy which is for me a very positive thing (some of my players are my family).

If you didn't "pay" extra or actually come up with something actually tricky other than saying "I do a disarm" and you didnt allocate a power choice like say the 17th level fighter power then should it have un-due impact?

It makes the game more dicey to have instant death maneuvers whatever skin you put on them because they dont tie in with the hit points as fatigue and luck and morale... system. The true completely weapon gone move changes things from d12 to d4 and removes 2 or three from proficiency and 1 to 6 for the weapon/implement bonus.

I am thinking I want to figure out what level encounter or daily power a riposting disarm might be. Its less than the 17th level fighers power... obviously how low can we go. I am thinking quite a ways lower depending on other details.

 

[Tai]

Right, I get that, but that means disarm has no influence on how the encounter plays out.

Yes, that's true. Because the combat system is an abstraction, and things like disarm and, for that matter, cutting someone's head off, are supposed to be handled using the existing mechanics, for reasons of simplicity and balance. If you want a system that handles things like disarms, go take a look at Hexicon Fantasy Roleplay - Fantasy Made Real. It's accurate, it's complete, and it takes three hours to do four seconds of combat. That's the compromise you have to make, I'm afraid.

 

[LostSoul]

It gives my players another method of not killing every enemy which is for me a very positive thing (some of my players are my family).

All they have to do is say, "I knock him out." There's no penalty for doing subdual/non-lethal damage.

If you didn't "pay" extra or actually come up with something actually tricky other than saying "I do a disarm" and you didnt allocate a power choice like say the 17th level fighter power then should it have un-due impact?

I don't believe it has an undue impact.

The true completely weapon gone move changes things from d12 to d4 and removes 2 or three from proficiency and 1 to 6 for the weapon/implement bonus.

I wouldn't go that far.

That's the compromise you have to make, I'm afraid.

Are you saying that you can only attempt the combat maneuvers listed in the book?

That's a far cry from "you can attempt anything you can imagine."

 

[Regicide]

But... have you looked at the Kuo-Toa Marauder?

Have you seen that NPCs and PCs don't play by the same rules yet?

 

[Turtlejay]

The true completely weapon gone move changes things from d12 to d4 and removes 2 or three from proficiency and 1 to 6 for the weapon/implement bonus.

I wouldn't go that far.

What do you mean? Wielding a weapon gives you +2 or +3 to hit with a proficiency bonus, and from +0 to +6 in an enhancement bonus. Unarmed attacks do 1d4 damage. So, If a PC is disarmed it is from -2 to -6 to hit (barring feats or powers that rely on that weapon) and from -0 to -6 on static damage bonuses (again, not counting feats or powers that increase this). You can't *not* do that far.

Now, doing this to an NPC will be different, sure, but tell me how an at-will disarm is not as good as or better than some of the at will powers that melee characters get. No matter what penalty you decree disarmed is (-2 to attack, weakened, an actual loss of weapons or powers) it is out of line to be that powerful.

Feel free to houserule or include it in your game (and break it), but I don't think it is a valid attack on 4e, and I don't think it should have been or will be included in any of the forms suggested here.

Jay

 

[Tai]

Are you saying that you can only attempt the combat maneuvers listed in the book?

That's a far cry from "you can attempt anything you can imagine."

No, you can try things that are not in the book occasionally, through the medium of stunts, but don't expect them to be overly powerful. If you want to do something repeatedly, then you should find one of the existing mechanics and skin it to what you want to do. As previously discussed, there are multiple powers and effects that can be used to replicate the effect of disarming someone, from weakened to dazed to knocked prone to given attack or damage penalties. What you can't do is make up at-will powers that are more powerful than a lot of characters' encounter powers, because you want to do something that's not in the book.

 

[Garthanos]

Are you saying that you can only attempt the combat maneuvers listed in the book? That's a far cry from "you can attempt anything you can imagine."

Real funny use of false duality (can't remember the technical term) you were told you can try your move and that the mechanics which "simulate" it will be something balanced and simple enough which exist in the game ...

The game gives your heros and significant villains a buffer zone of luck and skill and stamina and morale which is used among other things.. to prevent an instant death attack (see necrotic damage type versus random dicey death spell of yester year.). . similarly avoiding a psychic mind wipe could be done with hitpoints and other absolute finale effects

Some enemies in the game dont have that resource a basic slamming or twisting disarm maneuver will work perfectly as you describe it if the attack roll succeeds. Is that saying you cant disarm... Im pretty sure I just said yes... and that I use minions a lot... so expect it to work with frequency.

There is another mechanic not quite as balanced...as a final stroke rule.. so house ruling based on it... your players might find a way to make it do evil things

It is called Intimidate.. It does still restrict based on enemy hit points. Your enemy needs to be bloodied and it can be used to force an enemy to give up (disarm themselves and or flee) ... I play it as there choice that is its combat use.

Its only a minor projection to postulate an athletics skill use that disarms and usually causes the enemy to give up.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...0460-fencing-sneaking-disarm.html#post4888249

 

[LostSoul]

What do you mean?

I was thinking about disarm vs. NPCs, not PCs.

Feel free to houserule or include it in your game (and break it), but I don't think it is a valid attack on 4e, and I don't think it should have been or will be included in any of the forms suggested here.

It's meant as a defense of 4E! Some of the solutions here make 4E into the boardgame its detractors say it is. "You can only choose between power x, y, and z," they say. "No," I say, "you can try anything you want, and there are good guidelines on how the DM should rule it."

Now I'm told that kind of thinking is an attack against 4E and that it shouldn't have been suggested as a way of resolving disarm attempts.

In tonight's game I had an NPC who, as part of an encounter power, had to drop his weapon. He got it back the next round, even though he was pushed away from it. He wasn't out of the fight, it didn't end things; in my opinion it made things more interesting.

edit: Here's what I think of applying some of the conditions:

Dazed: If you need to shift, then move, you can't. What does that have to do with being disarmed?

Prone: You need to spend a move action to get up. Once again, if you want to shift and move to retreat from battle, you can't. What does that have to do with being disarmed?

Combat Advantage: This one isn't bad, though it doesn't reduce offensive power.

0 HP: It means that disarming someone doesn't have an impact on how the encounter plays out.

General penalties to attacks rolls/damage: This is cool, this is what I am proposing.

Disarming only when bloodied: That's okay too.

Weakened: Another good alternative. A little less dynamic, but simple enough.

Encounter only: That's fine, I can see it.

 

[Regicide]

It's meant as a defense of 4E! Some of the solutions here make 4E into the boardgame its detractors say it is. "You can only choose between power x, y, and z," they say. "No," I say, "you can try anything you want, and there are good guidelines on how the DM should rule it."

There are good guidelines for the DM dealing with random crap the players want to do? News to me. However I believe they've broken over 1000 pages of powers. 1000 pages of guidelines on what players can do is pretty good.

 

[Rothe_]

Few comments:

Dazed: If you need to shift, then move, you can't. What does that have to do with being disarmed?

You don't quite lose your weapon but you fumble with it and spend your minor and move actions to keep it in your hands. You grant combat advantage since you cannot parry properly.

Prone: You need to spend a move action to get up. Once again, if you want to shift and move to retreat from battle, you can't. What does that have to do with being disarmed?

Your weapon is knocked out of your hand and drops at your feet. You kneel to look for it (kneeling is included in prone condition).

Combat Advantage: This one isn't bad, though it doesn't reduce offensive power.

Your grip is loosened a bit, so your parries are weaker.

0 HP: It means that disarming someone doesn't have an impact on how the encounter plays out.

Your sword is tossed into the air and falls at the feet of your enemy, he steps on it and has his sword blade at your throat.

General penalties to attacks rolls/damage: This is cool, this is what I am proposing.

Some of the above.

Disarming only when bloodied: That's okay too.

Depends on how you do it. Intimidate could get the enemies to drop their weapons and run.

Weakened: Another good alternative. A little less dynamic, but simple enough.

This one is a good abstraction for things like hitting the opponent in the hand or arm, knocking the weapon out of his hand etc.

Encounter only: That's fine, I can see it.

The above effects do not appear in at-will powers of any class, so I'd definitely keep this in encounter powers.