Disarm/Sunder spell components?

[Legildur]

Really simple, I need to shut down a sorceror. My elven fighter/paladin is up against two half-demons (one sorceror/rogue, one ranger), so he can't grapple the arcane caster without risking being stabbed repeatedly by the two-weapon wielding ranger.

I was thinking to disarm the sorceror in some manner. Do I:

1. Disarm the spell component pouch?
2. Sunder the spell component pouch?
3. Ready an action to attack and hopefully force a concentration check to disrupt casting?
4. Ready an action to disarm the spell components themselves?
5. Any other options that I haven't considered?

And yes, I have initiative over the sorceror, but not the ranger.

And what rules do I refer to with your suggested option?

Thanks in advance.

 

[KarinsDad]

Grappling might be a good option, depending on your AC and whether the spell caster has a weapon out (or whether you have Improved Grapple), and whether the spell caster has a Dimension Door or Teleport available. The nice thing about Grapple is that if you can do it for two consecutive rounds, you can more or less take out most non-combatant type spell casters for most of the fight.

 

[Legildur]

I'll get mauled by the ranger if I try to grapple. Although the sorceror does not have a melee weapon. Unfortunately, my character has both hands full, and so grapple isn't really an option for that reason as well.

 

[kerbarian]

Really simple, I need to shut down a sorceror. My elven fighter/paladin is up against two half-demons (one sorceror/rogue, one ranger), so he can't grapple the arcane caster without risking being stabbed repeatedly by the two-weapon wielding ranger.

I was thinking to disarm the sorceror in some manner. Do I:

1. Disarm the spell component pouch?
2. Sunder the spell component pouch?
3. Ready an action to attack and hopefully force a concentration check to disrupt casting?
4. Ready an action to disarm the spell components themselves?
5. Any other options that I haven't considered?

And yes, I have initiative over the sorceror, but not the ranger.

And what rules do I refer to with your suggested option?

Thanks in advance.

I don't think disarming the spell components themselves would work, since preparing/manipulating spell components is a free action, and the caster could just pull out fresh spell components after you disarm the first set and carry on with casting.

Assuming the sorcerer only has one spell component pouch (which would be poor planning on his part -- they're cheap), then sunder is probably the safest bet. When you sunder a worn or carried object, the target doesn't get to make an opposed attack roll (details here). You'd just have to hit a low-ish AC and then deal enough damage to destroy the pouch (shouldn't be much).

Readying an action to attack during spellcasting has the advantage of actually damaging the sorcerer, though. Figure out the average damage you'd expect to inflict and compare it to the concentration check you'd expect the sorcerer to have (I'd assume he's maxxed in the concentration skill). If that has a pretty good chance of disrupting his spell, then I'd go with that -- you get to disrupt the spell *and* damage him.

 

[Infiniti2000]

1. Disarm the spell component pouch? That may be effective or not at all. Many sorcerers will have eschew materials. More importantly, is the spell component pouch "well secured"? I personally rule that it is by default.

2. Sunder the spell component pouch? Can you see one? Do you have a good spot check?

3. Ready an action to attack and hopefully force a concentration check to disrupt casting? This might be a good tactic unless the sorcerer has a maxed out concentration check. I'd say it's at worst a 50% chance that he does.

4. Ready an action to disarm the spell components themselves? Hmm, intriguing thought. Unfortunately, even if you did so, wouldn't it be a free action to pull out some more? The DM can limit free actions, but I'm not sure I would do so in this case (since I'm one of those who require only 1 free hand to cast and based on the chaos diamond thing, I'm gathering your DM has similar ideas).

5. Any other options that I haven't considered? What kind of terrain are you in? Do you have a mount? Any other abilities or things happening that could help? Having the mount or something else to distract the ranger would help. If terrain permits, perhaps bull rushing the sorcerer into a nearby pit or whatever. Or maybe grappling him and soaking up some nasty damage from the ranger, but then move the grappling into a pool of acid.

 

[Hawkson]

what other equipment do you have? what and who else is in the room? maybe there is another way out of the situation

 

[Legildur]

Thanks for all the comments so far.

Sunder is looking good at this stage, maybe as a readied action to prevent an alternative option being open to the sorceror.

Concentration check for a 20+ hit die half-demon sorceror with minimum 12-13 levels of sorceror (and a few rogue levels to boot)? Probably in the order of +25 or better (I think it has at least a reasonable Con score as a result of the half-demon template or whatever it is). Average damage for me is about a 29 hit points on a Smite Evil (multi-classed fighter/paladin), so Concentration check DC would be 39.

In fact, I do have a mount (Adult bronze dragon), but he is several days by foot away and my character doesn't even have mounted combat

Environment is neutral - underdark tunnel. Nothing around of any benefit there.

Soaking up damage from ranger whilst in a grapple (even if hands weren't full) is not an option, as only have 90 hit points left and (relatively) lightly armored. I couldn't take out the sorceror in time and survive.

There are other characters and another half-demon about, but everyone is busy trying to stay alive.

I figure if I can disable the spellcasting ability of the sorceror, then I can focus on the ranger without wondering if I'll muff a saving throw.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'll get mauled by the ranger if I try to grapple. Although the sorceror does not have a melee weapon. Unfortunately, my character has both hands full, and so grapple isn't really an option for that reason as well.

You are fighting two on one and you are pretty close to the Sorcerer since you just took his Chaos Diamond away.

From your other thread, you have allies who can eventually help.

So, you put the Chaos Diamond away (assuming the DM rules this as a move action, retrieving items is), do not care if it provokes an AoO, this frees up a hand, and then you grapple the spell caster.

Sure, the Ranger / Demon can attack you a lot with his two weapons, but there are no set answers here. Spell casters are typically more threatening than combatant types, at least in the short term. But, there are only a few ways in which to take out a spell caster. Do you really want to repeatedly face a Sorcerer who can cast Flesh to Stone? Or do you want to take hit point damage from a Ranger? Either way, you will probably take a lot of damage from the Ranger, so why not totally incapacitate the Sorcerer in the process?

And, if you are keeping two of the three demons busy, then that allows your fellow PCs to gang up on the third demon. DND is a team activity. Sometimes, you have to take one for the team (something a Paladin should not hesitate to do).

You are (with Chaos Diamond in hand), 13th level with about 90 hit points. You should be able to suck up at least two rounds of damage from the Ranger. That should give your allies time to help.

If you take out the Sorcerer completely with a grapple, you do two things: 1) Change the odds from 3 versus 7 to 2 versus 6 (both your PC and the Sorcerer become non-entities in the fight until the grapple ends), and 2) Your side then has the only spell casters which is huge in DND.

The advantages of a Grapple over a Disarm or Sunder of a spell component pouch are that it takes out both somatic and material components (not just material ones) and it limits the mobility of the opposing caster (shy of teleportation type spells). And if the Sorcerer is casting teleport type spells, he is not casting offensive spells.

But, taking away his spell component pouch is not going to stop a Sorcerer. At least, not any Sorcerer I've seen. Your plan to take away his pouch and then concentrate on the Ranger will result in death just as fast or faster (a save or die spell by the Sorcerer combined with attacks by the Ranger) than grappling the Sorcerer.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I've an interesting idea. Perhaps the ranger does not know how to use the chaos diamond.

Toss the chaos diamond down the tunnel (iterative attack 1), grapple the sorcerer (iterative attack 2), pin him (iterative attack three).

The ranger will have a tough decision. Since he's (likely) chaotic evil, I'd say there's a reasonable chance he'll go get the VERY expensive chaos diamond. If he doesn't know how to use it, that's even better. Meanwhile, you will have incapacitated the sorcerer and given your teamates valuable time to regroup. The best thing about it, everyone likely stays alive. The worst thing about it is that the bad guys get the diamond back, but if that happens and the ranger flees, that's okay. You will have accomplished a significant objective is this very difficult fight. You'll be much better prepared for that diamond later.

Well, actually, the worst thing is if the ranger knows how to use the chaos diamond. At least you will have given a couple of rounds of time to your group.

 

[Legildur]

KD, you raise some pretty good points there. Certainly something to think about. but I'm pretty sure that the sorceror doesn't have the Eschew Materials feat and so is reliant on the spell component pouch.

I2K, throwing the diamond down the tunnel is a gem of an idea (couldn't help myself). Given that it's a Wondrous Item, it's very likely that the ranger could use it (and yes, he is Chaotic Evil). But if I throw the diamond that way, and the ranger chases it, then it puts the wizard in a lot of peril as the ranger will be in close proximity to him (and I've already had to spend two rounds healing spellcasters back to consciousness!).

The shadowdancer is now down (possibly dead), and two others are Confused and deaf, and one other deaf. But the cleric is making his way there (damn heavy armor) and has a Dispel Chaos prepared and a Heal on a scroll.

And our wizard is about to come back into play (very badly hurt in the early rounds) and I know he has Disintegrate memorised. Would that destroy the Chaos Diamond?