Disarm, why so easy?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yes, a wizard is weak in melee, so does this mean that effectively a wizard should never try to use a wand, rod or other spell item in combat? Because it will just end up being ripped out of his hand.

He better shouldn't rely on his wands and rods alone, and avoid melee, yes. But that is always true, it doesn't matter whether his opponents tries to disarm him or just hit him repeatedly with a big stick or whatever else.

You could require a touch attack or something like that (in a way, it makes sense for any non-weapon item. You will try to parry with a weapon, but with a brooch or a wand?), but it will mostly just increase the time the action is resolved and still not make it hard for the Monk or any other Disarmer, since touch armour classes are usually lousy...

 

[Tarquis]

let me clarify the monk vs peasant vs wizard example above. What I was trying to say was that an attack that doesn't even hit a flat footed peasant still has a 45% chance of pulling the wand out of the hand of the fully aware wizard.

Talking it over with my players, including the monk player, we have all agreed that under the current rule a mid level monk becomes the best snatch and grab thief of all time.

We have decided that a touch attack is required before disarming so that at least you are threatening the target. Perhaps this should go to house rules now?

thanks for your replies

oh, and the wizard was an NPC enemy, they were supposed to defeat him. just maybe a bit more heroically then snatching his toys away

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

let me clarify the monk vs peasant vs wizard example above. What I was trying to say was that an attack that doesn't even hit a flat footed peasant still has a 45% chance of pulling the wand out of the hand of the fully aware wizard.

I don't think there is any misunderstanding here (at least not from me ).

Talking it over with my players, including the monk player, we have all agreed that under the current rule a mid level monk becomes the best snatch and grab thief of all time.

No, I think a mid-level fighter will be better at it. Even without the feat. (Who cares about the AoOs of a weakling Wizard?)

We have decided that a touch attack is required before disarming so that at least you are threatening the target. Perhaps this should go to house rules now?

Certainly an option. I think it wouldn't hurt if the rules regarding the special maneuvers were all a bit more streamlined. Grappling or trip requires a touch attack, disarm, sunder and bullrush don't. Trip and Bullrush are opposed strength rolls, grapple, disarm and sunder are special attack rolls with size-based modifiers...

thanks for your replies
oh, and the wizard was an NPC enemy, they were supposed to defeat him. just maybe a bit more heroically then snatching his toys away

It's certainly more slapstick-like than heroic . Though I am afraid your proposed mechanical changes won't change it that much.

 

[Artoomis]

A monk is not so great at diasrm. After all, he uses a light weapon, and so is at -4 to start with.

For items that are not weapon, this start him our even up on the disarm opposed roll.

Against a wizard this works well due to a wizards poor BAB, but a wizard should be doing everything possible to stay out of melee combat range anyway. ANY time a wizard gets involved in ANY sort of melee combat is a bad day for the wizard.

BTW, for disarming, a whip-wielder with Improved Disarm is hard to beat. +6 to the opposed check plus reach. Very nice.

My bard is good at this, but it does not come up all that often. Too many opponents have nothing to disarm.

He did, in the last encounter, disarm some sort of wizard-vampire thing - removing it's spell component pouch. Before you ask, he has the old "Lasher" Third Hand ability which lets him use the whip to grab things.

 

[kirstar]

my first question would be what sort of stupid wizard stores his uber broach or amulet of pwnage on the outside of his clothes ?

I would have it under my clothes and a fake one on the outside, probably horribly trapped incase its ever taken from me.

WIZARD : You cannot harm me, my amulet of pwnage makes me invulnrable to your petty attacks

MONK : Have at you wizard [disarm]

MONK : You are powerless with out this [waves amulet around]

WIZARD : [passes bluff check] NOOO!!!! not my amulet of ultimate pwnage. Anyone who wears it is invincible. [again somehow passes bluff check, even with over acting penalty]

MONK : Lets see how you like i wizard [puts on amulet]

WIZARD: [stares at greasy spot left on floor] lol.

 

[Zen]

I frequently deck out my bad guys with spare jewelry so as to confound opponents. In this case, even if you rule it wasn't well-secured, you could ask the monk, "You want to grab his brooch? Which one? He has three."

That's a simple case of over-accessorizing. It's a fact: if you want your minions to take you seriously, you can't come into the stronghold every morning looking like an evil Christmas tree. They snicker, you destroy them, and replacing those mooks runs into money.

Here's what i recommend: just before you leave your sanctum each day, turn your back on a mirror and then turn around quickly. Notice the first borach/necklace/pin/etc. that catches your eye, and take that off.

Hope that helps. Good luck with the evil!

--Z

 

[marune]

He did, in the last encounter, disarm some sort of wizard-vampire thing - removing it's spell component pouch. Before you ask, he has the old "Lasher" Third Hand ability which lets him use the whip to grab things.

I prefer to interpret the "spell component pouch" as an abstract item, not "one" pouch where all material components are stored. No more Sleight of Hand / Disarm on it.

 

[Artoomis]

I prefer to interpret the "spell component pouch" as an abstract item, not "one" pouch where all material components are stored. No more Sleight of Hand / Disarm on it.

I prefer the opposite. I like wizards to have an achilles heal, of sorts. At higher levels they go SO pwerful, it is good to be able to stop them in their tracks with a simple thing like disarm.

Of course, a feat takes care of that anyway (Eschew Material Components).

Many of the game-balancing mechanisms tend to get ignored a lot in actual play. Some that come to mind:

Spell Book.
Component Pouch.
Need a free hand for somatic spells (Cerilc are the biggest offenders).
Small carrying capacity of a low-str character.

Etc., etc.

I think that many of these things are keys to balancing things out and ignoring them give an unfair advantage somewhere.

But that's just me.

 

[IcyCool]

I think that many of these things are keys to balancing things out and ignoring them give an unfair advantage somewhere.

So, what's your opinion on Psions then?

 

[Artoomis]

So, what's your opinion on Psions then?

Don't know enough about 'em to have an opinion.