Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

WARNING!
If you're happy with high fantasy and d20, or if you aren't interested in hearing dissenting opinions, you can stop reading now... Move along, people, nothing to see here, LOL.
___________________________

Hello all,

Once again, it's time for my irregular and often ignored Harn post here on the d20 forum!

This time, I thought I'd serve up a link to an interesting thread regarding problems some players and GMs have had with D&D in its various editions and the d20 system. It is on the Harn Forum.

http://www.shadowharn.net/viewtopic.php?t=88

Personally, I agree with those who state that D&D/d20 is unrealistic and extremely problematic to fix in this regard due to the central combat system mechanics (AC, HP, etc.). That said, I've played D&D high fantasy for 20 years and have had a blast, but was never completely happy with the rules. Even 3e/d20 -- a vastly superior rules set to previous editions -- failed to fix the problems inherent with the combat and level based mechanics.

Having tired of high fantasy and unrealistic combat/character development, I wanted to switch to low fantasy and ended up switching to Harn (the setting) and HarnMaster Core (the rules), because I could not make D&D/d20 fit my definition of what I wanted the game to be (both setting and rules), despite months of devoted tinkering. Harn and HarnMaster proved to be exactly what I was looking for. I probably could not and would not have appreciated or enjoyed Harn & HarnMaster if I had stumbled across them in my teenage years, LOL, but now with the benefit of age, I am really enjoying them and wished I'd found them sooner (before blowing a thousand bucks or more on d20 stuff).

I had tired of seeing almost all of the new d20 products coming out catering to the high fantasy crowd, filling them full of gnomes, elves and dragons, etc. Most of these products were unusable for my game, and I was stuck buying only "crunchy bits" (to cobble together for my house rules) because I felt the quality of the adventures and world settings were such generic, terrible high fantasy "drivel" where little, if anything, made sense.

This post isn't to slam D&D or those who play it, so don't get your dander up, folks. I had fun with the game but now that I've moved on to a new one, I can better appreciate the problems some people have with D&D/d20 and the reasons behind it.

I thought the link above might shed some light on why some people are abandoning (or have already abandoned) D&D/d20 in favor of other systems (not necessarily HarnMaster, which would be a minority in any event).

For those frustrated souls seeking a more realistic, low fantasy alternative to D&D, you might want to check out Harn and HarnMaster by Columbia Games, Inc.

http://www.columbiagames.com

 

[BryonD]

Why does this post make me think of Jehovah's Witnesses?

 

[Mark]

Why does this post make me think of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Because the good Kaptain has become a Harniac...and you've misspelt "Witless"...

 

[Crothian]

D20 is far from perfect. However, all systems have flaws. Many of us have played in a few dozen different systems. For me the system is a means to an ends. D20 fits what I want to do, plus many people know it so I can find a group easily if needed. After 20+ years of gaming, I'm happy with d20 and I really have no desire to go looking and learn new systems.

However, I'm very happy for KK that he has found a system he truely likes. Around ten years ago I thought I had, but after eight years the flaws outweighed the fun. I've playing d20 for two years, so we'll have to see in another 6 if I still feel this way.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Actually, I think the reason so many people seem to be leaving d20 is due to human nature. 3e/d20 came along, a bunch of people jumped on the bandwagon, and now that the novelty has worn off, a lot of people are jumping off the bandwagon. But 3e did its job - it gained (or more exactly, regained) a relatively huge fan base for D&D.

 

[Desdichado]

Are people leaving d20 in droves? I somehow doubt it. I have my problems with the system, but having a confirmed player base and a system that works really well for anything I need it to (especially considering variants like CoC, WoT or Star Wars) I have no desire whatsoever to leave d20. For gritty fantasy, I'd just use CoC character, magic and maybe even psionics rules in a fantasy setting.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Are people leaving d20 in droves? I somehow doubt it.

Yeah, I do too. I think, as I said above, that 3e/d20 saw a high-water mark set for D&D. It was only natural that it would subside a bit, down to a stable level.

 

[Psion]

WARNING!
If you're happy with high fantasy and d20, or if you aren't interested in hearing dissenting opinions, you can stop reading now... Move along, people, nothing to see here, LOL.

Don't look now, but I think you might be the one afraid of dissenting opinions...

But if you really aren't afraid of dissenting opinion, then you shouldn't have a problem with mine, eh?

Personally, I agree with those who state that D&D/d20 is unrealistic and extremely problematic to fix in this regard due to the central combat system mechanics (AC, HP, etc.). That said, I've played D&D high fantasy for 20 years and have had a blast, but was never completely happy with the rules. Even 3e/d20 -- a vastly superior rules set to previous editions -- failed to fix the problems inherent with the combat and level based mechanics.

Having tired of high fantasy and unrealistic combat/character development, I wanted to switch to low fantasy and ended up switching to Harn (the setting) and HarnMaster Core (the rules), because I could not make D&D/d20 fit my definition of what I wanted the game to be (both setting and rules),

So, since D&D doesn't fit what you want it to be, it's a "problem"? The system does what it is intended to do: high fantasy. That's not a problem. It's a strength. So don't sit here and spout that there are "problems" in the system because it doesn't fit your vision. The only problem here is you trying to use the wrong tool for the job. If it DID fit your vision, it would be a problem to me because it would be as dry as toast.

And it would also sell like HARN.

Just my dissenting opinion.

So if you want to play Harn, go have a blast. But don't advertise it as being due to some flaw in the system.

Thanks.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Are people leaving d20 in droves? I somehow doubt it. I have my problems with the system, but having a confirmed player base and a system that works really well for anything I need it to (especially considering variants like CoC, WoT or Star Wars) I have no desire whatsoever to leave d20. For gritty fantasy, I'd just use CoC character, magic and maybe even psionics rules in a fantasy setting.

CLARIFICATION:
I did not mean to imply (and don't think that I did) that people are leaving d20 in droves.

PERSONAL OBSERVATION:
I thought I could modify the d20 rules to fit Harn (or any low fantasy/gritty setting), but I tried using a hybrid D&D3e/Cthulhu d20 rules set (mixed in with some Fading Suns d20 and Swashbuckling Adventures/7th Sea d20) and after spending three weeks writing/developing the hybrid system, and playtesting it for another three weeks (up to 3rd level), my players and I felt that it still wasn't "quite right"... So, on a whim (and out of sheer desperation, LOL) I picked up HarnMaster Core and we converted our d20 characters over and continued playing the campaign using HarnMaster Core rules. It made an immediate and spectacular improvement in our game! We have had the best, most realistic, deadly, terrifying and brutally graphic combats in all our decades of roleplaying! Absolutely gruesome, quick and graphic combat results. You can attack any way you want and defend any way you want (all the while crossing your fingers and praying to the Great RPG God to show mercy on your soul).

MY EXPERIENCE WITH HARNMASTER SO FAR:
I'm glad HarnMaster is working so splendidly for me. Is it perfect? No. Am I house ruling things? Absolutely. But damn, we are having a blast! The rules for once, are not getting in the way of what we want to do. Balance is not much of an issue; realism is (or fantasy realism for the more fantastic concepts like monsters, magic or psionics, etc.).

ABOUT MY ENTHUSIASTIC PROSELYTIZING ON ENWORLD:
Yes, I am a newly converted Harniac and proud of it. But I would never have discovered Harn were it not for D&D, and I would never have traded the good times D&D/d20 have given me over the years. I'm just ready for a change. I don't expect everyone here to follow in my footsteps or agree, LOL, I just want to "spread the good word".

 

[Renshai]

Umm.... what Psion said.