Discussion for a Kingdom of ashes OOC II
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Xath
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Tiamat in this game borrows heavily from the celtic Morrigan, the Indian Kali-ma, the sumerian Tiamat, Morganna le Fey in Arthurian legend, and even Jason/Medea.
Sumerian-Babalonian Creation Myth
Ok, well, let's see what we can piece together. There is some very interesting information on Tiamat to be found in Babalonian and Sumerian creation myth. There is an interesting tale, the Babalonian "Epic of Creation--Enuma Elish" which was written around the 12th century BCE. See what has been translated from the tablets here.
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/babylon.htm
Certain aspects of these tablets sound very familiar. This is one passage as an example.
They are banded together and at the side of Tiamat they advance;
They are furious, they devise mischief without resting night and day.
They prepare for battle, fuming and raging;
They have joined their forces and are making war.
Ummu-Hubur, who formed all things,
Hath made in addition weapons invincible; she hath spawned monster-serpents,
Sharp of tooth and merciless of fang.
With poison, instead of blood, she hath filled their bodies.
Fierce monster-vipers she hath clothed with terror,
With splendor she hath decked them, she hath made them of lofty stature.
Whoever beboldeth them, terror overcometh him,
Their bodies rear up and none can withstand their attack.
She hath set up vipers, and dragons, and the monster Lahamu,
And hurricanes, and raging hounds, and scorpion-men,
And mighty tempests, and fish-men, and rams;
They bear merciless weapons, without fear of the fight.
Her commands are mighty; none can resist them;
After this fashion, huge of stature, hath she made eleven monsters.
Among the gods who are her sons, inasmuch as he hath given her support,
She hath exalted Kingu; in their midst she hath raised him to power.
To march before the forces, to lead the host,
To give the battle-signal, to advance to the attack, To direct the battle, to control the fight,
Unto him hath she entrusted; in costly raiment she hath made him sit, saving:
I have uttered thy spell; in the assembly of the gods I have raised thee to power,
The dominion over all the gods have I entrusted unto thee.
Be thou exalted, thou my chosen spouse,
May they magnify thy name over all of them...the Anunnaki.
She hath given him the Tablets of Destiny on his breast she laid them, saving:
Thy command shall not be without avail, and the word of thy mouth shall be established.
Now Kingu, thus exalted, having received the power of Anu,
Decreed the fate for the gods, her sons, saying:
"Let the opening of your mouth quench the Fire-god;
Whoso is exalted in the battle, let him display his might!"
A somewhat similar summarized version (for those who don't read) is below.
In Babylonian myths, Tiamat is a huge, bloated female dragon that personifies the saltwater ocean, the water of Chaos. She is also the primordial mother of all that exists, including the gods themselves. Her consort is Apsu, the personification of the freshwater abyss that lies beneath the Earth. From their union, saltwater with freshwater, the first pair of gods were born. They are Lachmu and Lachamu, parents of Ansar and Kisar, grandparents of Anu and Ea.
In the creation epic Enuma elish, written around 2000 BCE, their descendants started to irritate Tiamat and Apsu so they decided to kill their offspring. Ea discovered their plans and he managed to kill Apsu while the latter was asleep. Tiamat flew into a rage when she learned about Apsu's death and wanted to avenge her husband. She created an army of monstrous creatures, which was to be led by her new consort Kingu, who is also her son. Eventually, Tiamat was defeated by the young god Marduk, who was born in the deep freshwater sea.
Marduk cleaved her body in half, and from the upper half he created the sky and from the lower half he made the earth. From her water came forth the clouds and her tears became the source of the Tigris and the Euphratus. Kingu also perished, and from his blood Marduk created the first humans.
Sumerian-Babalonian Creation Myth
Ok, well, let's see what we can piece together. There is some very interesting information on Tiamat to be found in Babalonian and Sumerian creation myth. There is an interesting tale, the Babalonian "Epic of Creation--Enuma Elish" which was written around the 12th century BCE. See what has been translated from the tablets here.
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/babylon.htm
Certain aspects of these tablets sound very familiar. This is one passage as an example.
They are banded together and at the side of Tiamat they advance;
They are furious, they devise mischief without resting night and day.
They prepare for battle, fuming and raging;
They have joined their forces and are making war.
Ummu-Hubur, who formed all things,
Hath made in addition weapons invincible; she hath spawned monster-serpents,
Sharp of tooth and merciless of fang.
With poison, instead of blood, she hath filled their bodies.
Fierce monster-vipers she hath clothed with terror,
With splendor she hath decked them, she hath made them of lofty stature.
Whoever beboldeth them, terror overcometh him,
Their bodies rear up and none can withstand their attack.
She hath set up vipers, and dragons, and the monster Lahamu,
And hurricanes, and raging hounds, and scorpion-men,
And mighty tempests, and fish-men, and rams;
They bear merciless weapons, without fear of the fight.
Her commands are mighty; none can resist them;
After this fashion, huge of stature, hath she made eleven monsters.
Among the gods who are her sons, inasmuch as he hath given her support,
She hath exalted Kingu; in their midst she hath raised him to power.
To march before the forces, to lead the host,
To give the battle-signal, to advance to the attack, To direct the battle, to control the fight,
Unto him hath she entrusted; in costly raiment she hath made him sit, saving:
I have uttered thy spell; in the assembly of the gods I have raised thee to power,
The dominion over all the gods have I entrusted unto thee.
Be thou exalted, thou my chosen spouse,
May they magnify thy name over all of them...the Anunnaki.
She hath given him the Tablets of Destiny on his breast she laid them, saving:
Thy command shall not be without avail, and the word of thy mouth shall be established.
Now Kingu, thus exalted, having received the power of Anu,
Decreed the fate for the gods, her sons, saying:
"Let the opening of your mouth quench the Fire-god;
Whoso is exalted in the battle, let him display his might!"
A somewhat similar summarized version (for those who don't read) is below.
In Babylonian myths, Tiamat is a huge, bloated female dragon that personifies the saltwater ocean, the water of Chaos. She is also the primordial mother of all that exists, including the gods themselves. Her consort is Apsu, the personification of the freshwater abyss that lies beneath the Earth. From their union, saltwater with freshwater, the first pair of gods were born. They are Lachmu and Lachamu, parents of Ansar and Kisar, grandparents of Anu and Ea.
In the creation epic Enuma elish, written around 2000 BCE, their descendants started to irritate Tiamat and Apsu so they decided to kill their offspring. Ea discovered their plans and he managed to kill Apsu while the latter was asleep. Tiamat flew into a rage when she learned about Apsu's death and wanted to avenge her husband. She created an army of monstrous creatures, which was to be led by her new consort Kingu, who is also her son. Eventually, Tiamat was defeated by the young god Marduk, who was born in the deep freshwater sea.
Marduk cleaved her body in half, and from the upper half he created the sky and from the lower half he made the earth. From her water came forth the clouds and her tears became the source of the Tigris and the Euphratus. Kingu also perished, and from his blood Marduk created the first humans.
Xath
Moder-gator
The Indian Goddess, Kali-Ma
I found this one to be informative, yet somewhat more confusing, as many of the references made to Kali-Ma, are things that in Aeres are attributed to Oberon.
However, if not many similarities can be found in the form of Tiamat and Mother Kali, the goals of the two are strikingly similar.
They seek the purification of the world, something which our characters have all heard about from those draconids who have experienced the Shadow Path. For a more in depth text on Kali, click here.
Mother Kali is known as Kali-Ma, the Black Goddess, Maha Kali, Nitya Kali, Smashana Kali, Raksha Kali, Shyama Kali, Kalikamata, and Kalaratri. Among the Tamils she is known as Kottavei. Maha Kali and Nitya Kali are mentioned in the Tantra philosophy. 'Kal' means Darkness; Kali takes away that Darkness. She takes away the darkness from every individual who strives in the path of perfection by performing the spiritual disciplines of purifying austerities. Just as all the colors of the spectrum mix into black, yet still black remains black, so too, Kali, who is completely Dark, Unknowable, takes away all the Darkness, yet She, Herself, remains unchanged.
Kali ("the black one") is the Hindu mother goddess, symbol of dissolution and destruction. She destroys ignorance, maintains the world order, and blesses and frees those who strive for the knowledge of God. In the Vedas the name is associated with Agni, the god of fire, who had seven flickering tongues of flame, of which Kali was the black, horrible tongue. This meaning of the word has meanwhile been replaced by the goddess Kali, the grim consort of Shiva.
And a short summary for those who don't like reading...
Her appearance is fearsome: baleful eyes, a protruding tongue, and four arms. In her upper left hand she wields a bloody sword and in her lower left hand she holds the severed head of a demon. With her upper right hand she makes the gesture of fearlessness, while the lower right hand confers benefits. Draped around her is a chain of severed human heads and she wears a belt made of dismembered arms. As the Divine Mother she is often represented dancing or in sexual union with Shiva. As Bhavatarini, the redeemer of the universe, she stands upon the supine form of her spouse.
She is also known as Kalikamata ("black earth-mother") and Kalaratri ("black night"). Among the Tamils she is known as Kottavei. Kali is worshipped particularly in Bengal. Her best known temples are in Kalighat and Dakshineshvara.
The strange thing, although unrelavent to the game, is that reference to Kali Ma can be found in modified Christian creationism as well. Sheesh, I'm starting to get interested in this Mythology stuff.
I found this one to be informative, yet somewhat more confusing, as many of the references made to Kali-Ma, are things that in Aeres are attributed to Oberon.
However, if not many similarities can be found in the form of Tiamat and Mother Kali, the goals of the two are strikingly similar.
They seek the purification of the world, something which our characters have all heard about from those draconids who have experienced the Shadow Path. For a more in depth text on Kali, click here.
Mother Kali is known as Kali-Ma, the Black Goddess, Maha Kali, Nitya Kali, Smashana Kali, Raksha Kali, Shyama Kali, Kalikamata, and Kalaratri. Among the Tamils she is known as Kottavei. Maha Kali and Nitya Kali are mentioned in the Tantra philosophy. 'Kal' means Darkness; Kali takes away that Darkness. She takes away the darkness from every individual who strives in the path of perfection by performing the spiritual disciplines of purifying austerities. Just as all the colors of the spectrum mix into black, yet still black remains black, so too, Kali, who is completely Dark, Unknowable, takes away all the Darkness, yet She, Herself, remains unchanged.
Kali ("the black one") is the Hindu mother goddess, symbol of dissolution and destruction. She destroys ignorance, maintains the world order, and blesses and frees those who strive for the knowledge of God. In the Vedas the name is associated with Agni, the god of fire, who had seven flickering tongues of flame, of which Kali was the black, horrible tongue. This meaning of the word has meanwhile been replaced by the goddess Kali, the grim consort of Shiva.
And a short summary for those who don't like reading...
Her appearance is fearsome: baleful eyes, a protruding tongue, and four arms. In her upper left hand she wields a bloody sword and in her lower left hand she holds the severed head of a demon. With her upper right hand she makes the gesture of fearlessness, while the lower right hand confers benefits. Draped around her is a chain of severed human heads and she wears a belt made of dismembered arms. As the Divine Mother she is often represented dancing or in sexual union with Shiva. As Bhavatarini, the redeemer of the universe, she stands upon the supine form of her spouse.
She is also known as Kalikamata ("black earth-mother") and Kalaratri ("black night"). Among the Tamils she is known as Kottavei. Kali is worshipped particularly in Bengal. Her best known temples are in Kalighat and Dakshineshvara.
The strange thing, although unrelavent to the game, is that reference to Kali Ma can be found in modified Christian creationism as well. Sheesh, I'm starting to get interested in this Mythology stuff.
Xath
Moder-gator
Laurel said:
Well, one of the things which struck me about this relationship was that mythologically speaking, Oberon was the Lord of Elves and the Prince of Fairies, although this concept has been modified to become something akin to Father Nature in reference to the Kingdom of Aeres.
But one question becomes, are only elves being taken down the shadow path? Or are other races being turned as well as the draconic forces take over other cities? Is there some connection between Oberon's mythological connection with the elves and Tiamat's vengence?
Oddly enough, the Bengali-Indian goddess Kali-Ma is also known as the Mother Nature equivalent in certain references.
Archon
First Post
Sometimes people can surprise you if you let them.
that made for some good reading. yup that's right, i Mick Ivan Nichols, aka "He Who Shall Not Read" read it all.
it was cool. but i don't think we can count on gods to help us. this is our fight to win or loose.
mik aka ....
that made for some good reading. yup that's right, i Mick Ivan Nichols, aka "He Who Shall Not Read" read it all.
it was cool. but i don't think we can count on gods to help us. this is our fight to win or loose.mik aka ....
The_Universe
First Post
Oberon is a nature lord with a significant tilt towards good (in the game) while Tiamat has been saddled with certain negative aspects of the Kali Ma (destroyer, annihilator) and the mythological Tiamat (she-who-births-monsters, definite draconic connections) that lean her directly towards evil, with a focus on the unnatural. Despite this, even the Kali Ma is an essentially neutral deity in myth (as are most).
Soem interesting research on Gertie's behalf, but I am not sure we've ended up with a clear picture of how to react to a people that clearly revere the in-game Tiamat...
Ah, I do love ancient mythology.
Have fun guessing!
Soem interesting research on Gertie's behalf, but I am not sure we've ended up with a clear picture of how to react to a people that clearly revere the in-game Tiamat...
Ah, I do love ancient mythology.
Have fun guessing!
The_Universe
First Post
And if you REALLY wanted to metagame, you'd hit the Arthurian legends, because that's what I love best. After all, Tiamat's son is named Mordred. The capital is named Caer Albion, and the entire last campaign was about freeing swords from stones.
But that'd only work if you wanted to metagame.
After all, Tiamat's son is named Mordred. The capital is named Caer Albion, and the entire last campaign was about freeing swords from stones.But that'd only work if you wanted to metagame.
Xath
Moder-gator
The_Universe said:And if you REALLY wanted to metagame, you'd hit the Arthurian legends, because that's what I love best.
But that'd only work if you wanted to metagame.
In my opinion, Google=Bardic Knowledge
I'm taking the iniative, because I really don't think you want to compile every reference to Tiamat, shadows, Mordred the Black, etc. that Xath could pull out of her brain.
Know thine enemy. I'm really trying here. Help me not to metagame by telling me what I know. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that trying to piece together bits and pieces of Earth mythology would be roughly equivalent to trying to postulate theories of Tiamat and her followers based on myths and stories.
Laurel
First Post
Ivan.. huh... never woulda guessed that....Archon said:that made for some good reading. yup that's right, i Mick Ivan Nichols, aka "He Who Shall Not Read" read it all.
mik aka ....
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