(Discussion) General Part V

[Jack Haggerty]

Before this discussion goes any further, let me make one thing perfectly clear...

I will not post anything to my website that cannot be covered by an Open Gaming Licence. That means, including the SRD (Core Rulebooks), I am comfortable posting anything that is Open Gaming Content, or original Living Enworld work.

There is absolutely no way that you can make any information selectively available. That is to say, no matter how many passwords we put on a website, there is no guarantee that someone won't let that password slip to someone who shouldn't have it. (Sorry, guys, I don't know any of you well enough to trust you that much, and there are far too many posters involved in Enworld to keep any such thing a complete secret for long.) Sooner or later, non-OGL stuff posted on the web will get us into some sort of trouble, and we'll have to remove it anyway. It's happened many times before. I'd rather avoid that altogether.

Look around at your books... There is a surprising amount of OGC out there. I just took a look at my Skull & Bones book, because there is an awful lot of good swashbuckling feats and PrCs in there. The cover page essentially says something like, "Everything in this book is Open Game Content except for Chapter 13, and any Legends of Piracy sidebar." Practically the entire book is OGC. Once we get organized, I plan on proposing quite a few feats and classes from that book.

 

[Uriel]

Tried to post earlier...ENWorld ate my post.

See what happens when I go to Guitar Center to buy a MIDI cable!?!

Ok, I, not CS, was the initiator of this topic.

I asked (in his Dwarven Ruins game) CS if it would be Ok to have developed Silvercat's Level 2 as a Swashbuckler instead of as a Fighter. We leveled a bit ago, and very little (IG) has happened since then, actually.
As a Fighter, I had taken Weapon Finesse as my feat (SC is a Rogue @ Level 1,btw), wanting to go the lighter armored,more precision than brawn route.
The Swashbuckler (since I picked up the Complete Warrior book a few weeks back) was an obvious sub.

Now, as far as being able to post OGL vs. non-OGL stuff, I don't think that there is as big a problem as some folks might think.
If merely posting the stats for a class, say, in a character description, will get us into trouble, then we are already in trouble, as many posted characters throughout ENWorld have spell descriptions, class abilities etc...from non-OGL posted (with full descriptions in many cases).

I plan on introducing an NPC for Rivenblight, sort of the toughest-of-the-tough elven swordsmen. For ease of reference, he will have the Swashbuckler stats a the end of his sheet.

dpdx mentioned that he thought that such a character should serve as a swab or some such first, making this a PrC.

The Swashbuckler isn't some uber-badass character (PrC) with tons of special abilities. It is a fighter with a different set of skills, particular feats at certain levels and less feats overall.Perhaps the name should have been different, as the Core Class in no way suggests that you are actually a sailor at all. This class is merely a finesse fighter. Maybe they should have named it the Nimble Warrior or some such.
It is, in no way, a path to the mightiest character in Enworld.


When I created my character, I was envisioning Rivenblight as a sort of Renaissance City of Elves, and Romeo and Juliet was very forefront when setting the tone in my own head. Guilds and Clans of duelling Grey,High and some (outsider) Wood elves, political intrigue etc...
At the core of many of the problems are the Drow, who live in the ruins down below and infiltrate the society above.

Swashbucklers fit the archtype far better than a fighter, which really isn't designed for roof-top battles, duels on causeways overlooking five hundred foot drops and running battles between buildings. Neither is the Rogue, which can do most of that well (and far betteer than a fighter), but relies on backstabbing and ambush, where the Elves of Rivenblight are honorable adverasies with very strict rules of engagement.
Sure, there are Rogues skulking amongst the shadows, and plate armored fighters serving in the Houses, but the bulk of the folk waging war in the City don't fit into either archtype.

So far, Silvercat has not Sneak Attacked anything, forged any documents or picked a lock. Neither has he Power Attacked a foe, or really done anything very fighterlike. Despite my ability to Sneak, he wouldn't do it in every case, since his honor is ultimately the measure of how he treats his foes.
I went through Level 1 as a laughable combatant, running around with a Rapier and Poignard, with a total of -1 to hit. Sure, a different build would have yielded a better character, but I had a Roleplaying vision, as oppossed to a min-maxing one. Regardless of which class he develops as, I am going to waste skill points on Poetry and Play-Violin as well, because I'm one of those silly Roleplayers.

I am totally fine with whichever decision we come to on the subject, but I must say here, that it will affect the setting in one respect.
While it has not been included (except as a hook in one game), I would want to remove Rivenblight from Living ENWorld entirely.I have quite a lt of things already for the place, much of it revolving around non-OGL material (Swashbucklers being at the Core). I will just transplant the City elsewhere, maybe run adventures on the regular Playing boards, as I want to tell stories set there in PbP as well as in RL (which I am starting very soon).
There is nothing to keep others from using my name or the tidbits out there, but I feel that stirctly pdf can't do it justice. At one level, this sounds like 'If we aren't gonna play kickball, then I'm taking my ball', but it is really me expressing that I want this City to have a certain flavor, and pdf only just doesn't have the exact spices needed for the recipe. I have aspirations of throwing the City together as either a RL product or as a pdf product at some point, and I thought that LEW might be a good place to see if folks liked it. I guess that the very nature of LEW is oppossed to me telling my stories, since a myriad of GMs could use the setting (or kill off Dyaral Varquestre, the ruling Duke, for example) and throw a big cog in the works.

I didn't want to set off a discussion war, or cause any major strife, anyways...

-Ron

 

[Creamsteak]

I've been wondering about that. I know that we often post in the RG content like this:

Zasorthane, exiled of house Izridas Zigân
Lawful Evil Drow Hexblade 4
Hit Dice: 4d10+4 (37 hp)
Initiative: +3 (Dex)
Speed: 30 ft. (Light Load: 48.5 lb./58.0 lb.)
AC: 18 (+3 dex, +5 armor)
Full Attacks: +1 large adamantine greatsword +6 melee (3d6+4/19-20x2 slashing), masterwork alchemically silvered shortsword +7 melee (1d6+1/19-20x2 piercing)
Attacks: +1 large adamantine greatsword +6 melee (3d6+3/19-20x2 slashing), masterwork alchemically silvered shortsword +7 melee (1d6+1/18-20x2 piercing)
Racial Traits (ECL +2): Darkvision (120 ft.), drow racial traits, drow weapon proficiencies, elf sense, favored class (wizard), immunity to magic sleep effects, light blindness, spell-like abilities, spell resistance 15
Class Features: Arcane resistance, hexblade's curse 1/day, hexblade spells, light armor proficiency, martial weapon proficiency (all), mettle, simple weapon proficiency (all), summon familiar
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4; +2 bonus vs. enchantment spells or effects, +7 bonus vs. all Spells and spell-like effects
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 19 (21)
Skills: Bluff +12 [7 ranks], Concentration +5 [4 ranks], Diplomacy +7 [2 ranks], Intimidate +7 [2 ranks], Knowledge (arcana) +4 [3 ranks], Spellcraft +4 [3 ranks]; +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, +2 Alertness bonus to Listen and Spot when familiar is within arms reach, +3 familiar bonus to Bluff when familiar is within 1 mile, +4 Combat Casting bonus to concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while on the defensive or while grappling or pinned
Feats: [Combat Casting], Monkey Grip, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Underdark

Arcane Resistance (Su): The hexblade gains a bonus equal to his charisma bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

Elf sense (Ex): An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

Hexblade's Curse (Su): Once per day, as a free action, a hexblade can unleash a curse upon a foe. The target must be visible to the hexblade and within 60 feet. The target of a hexblade's curse takes a -2 penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for 1 hour thereafter. A successful Will save (DC 17) negates the effect.

Mettle: A hexblade can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower and fortitude. If he makes a successful will or fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping hexblade does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Spell-like abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights (DC 15), darkness (DC 17), faerie fire (DC 16). Caster level equals the drow’s class levels.

Familiar
Tiny Viper - HD: 1d8 (hp 14); Initiative: +3; Speed: 15 ft., climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.; AC: 18 (+2 size, +3 dex, +3 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14; Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-11; Attack: Bite +7 melee (1 plus poison); Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1 plus poison); Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.; Special Attacks: Poison; Special Qualities: Alertness, empathic link, improved evasion, scent, share spells; Saves: Fort +2, Reflex +5, Will +5; Abilities: Str 4, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 2;Skills: Balance +11, Bluff +3, Climb +11, Diplomacy -2, Intimidate -2, Hide +15, Listen +6, Spellcraft +4, Spot +6, Swim +5; Feats: Weapon finesse

Hexblade Spells (Caster Level 2)
1st (2/day) DC 16 - Expeditious Retreat, Undetectable Alignment

Equipment (12,837/13,000 gp)
+1 Chain shirt (1,250 gp) [25 lb.]
+1 Large adamantine greatsword (5,400 gp) [16 lb.]
Masterwork cold iron shortsword (320 gp) [2 lb.]
Masterwork hand Crossbow (250 gp) [2 lb.]
Alchemically silvered bolts x20 (42 gp) [2 lb.]
Flask of cure light wounds, 8 doses) (400 gp) [0.8 lb.]
Bull’s strength potion x2 (600 gp) [0.2 lb.]
Barkskin +2 potion (300 gp) [0.1 lb.]
Shield of faith +2 potion x3 (150 gp) [0.2 lb.]
Scroll of identify (125 gp) [0.1 lb.]
Cloak of charisma +2 (4,000 gp)
Snake familiar (100 gp)

There is both OGL and other content. The other content has never been a problem. The only additional information a player would need is weapon/armor proficiencies and the classes BAB/Saves to roll up an equal level Hexblade.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Now, as far as being able to post OGL vs. non-OGL stuff, I don't think that there is as big a problem as some folks might think. If merely posting the stats for a class, say, in a character description, will get us into trouble, then we are already in trouble, as many posted characters throughout ENWorld have spell descriptions, class abilities etc...from non-OGL posted (with full descriptions in many cases).

I will stand by my response for three reasons...

1. Making a copy of any rules, OGC or not, for the use of a single player and his GM is one thing. Posting those rules on a publicly accessible website is another kettle of fish altogether. And whether someone is posting non-OGC material on these board is a matter for the moderators to handle, not me. Whether or not you get into trouble for it depends entirely on the demeanor of the publisher you're stealing from. I've seen very small, relatively unknown websites having to remove non-OGC material, because too many people found out about it and publisher complained. I don't want to mess with that. We're all better off avoding that from the beginning.

2. I have far too much respect for someone else's intellectual property to distribute for free something that they are making money from. The authors have given carte blanche permission to use and re-publish OGC material, and by the same respect they have denied permission to non-OGC material. I would not be the one to break that sort of trust.

3. Nothing would make me happier than if, when this is all over, we could find someone to publish a Enworld Campaign Setting booklet. We'd never be able to do that, if we used non-OGC stuff.

We have so many talented and original people here, I don't see why we have the need to use non-OGC material at all. We can always have someone come up with something similar, but new.

In short, non-OGC won't go up on my website. Period.
I will not change my mind.
If you really must post non-OGC, find another place.

No hard feelings. Just something I must stand up for.

 

[dpdx]

Uriel, you know how long we've PbPed together, you know you're the one that recommended I join LEW (for which I'm sure many people are annoyed with you - thanks, all the same), but Jack is right, and non-OGC can't go up in here (or on the website) unless someone in the LEW community made it.

And I still think PrC is the way out of the Swashbuckler dilemma. (Post one up; Jack will approve it! )

Besides, it only looks unattainable now because no PC is above what, 3rd level?, but that will change, and soon people will become eligible for PrCs. You can very closely approximate Silvercat's slinkyness (sleekitude?) with feat choices and skill buffs until then. He's already got a rapier and light armor, right? So he's threatening crits on a 19 or 20 already, you're not worried about sneak attack (the honor of the thing, an' all), maybe some defensive feats (I'd imagine Dodge is just about automatic), and you're ready to swashbuckle as a PrC by 5th, when I throw your asses at the Yuan-Ti!

Trust me, it's better this way. No one gets in trouble, and no one feels bad because they haven't got the right book to be Allan Quatermain.

[Creamsteak, the stat block doesn't work for others because the context under which you get what special ability at what level doesn't exist without the non-OGC content. Besides, have you looked at (I think it's) Ieranth? Demi of Bad Luck or some such, her clerics hurl curses and bad luck charms at people. That seems pretty close to what you want to do with the hexblade.]

 

[Uriel]

In the interest of keeping our little virtual society here civil, I am rescinding my request for the inclusion of the Swashbukler Core Class.

Arguments either way woill only detract from enjoyment, and my character concept isn't crushed by having togo Fighter/Rogue instead.

I would also like to ask that future DMs/players etc... not use the city that I threw out there (Rivenblight) as a component in their stories, as I am going to *poof, it's gone* the place in order to use it as I envision it (since it is my creation, after all) in another PbP game.

Thomas Hobbes wouldn't have much of a problem subbing a different name for his game, and I do believe that he is the only one using the place at this point. If (I've heard wierder things) anyone has a problem with me trying to take something away from the community of Living ENWorld, I guess folks can still use the name, but I plan on running adventures set there elsewhere on the boards instead. I hope that this isn't a problem for anyone else here. Please let me know if it causes any undue stress and/or problems with the setting.

 

[Creamsteak]

If it is already on the map, I think I'll feel weird about crossing it off. So, at the least, we'll probably be taking the name and keeping it if that is alright.

 

[Uriel]

If it is already on the map, I think I'll feel weird about crossing it off. So, at the least, we'll probably be taking the name and keeping it if that is alright.

... carry on...

 

[Sparky]

We could make the elves that lived there - high falutin' courtiers, notorious cat-like warriors and all - up and vanish. Everything - everything that wasn't nailed down anyway. Nobody even knows yet that it has happened. Let alone why. Eccept maybe the bandit leader in TH's Rivenblight's Castaway. Gives new meaning to the title, eh?

As news creeps out, monsters, squatters, treasure hunters, mourners, masons - all sorts of folks - would make their way to do any number of things in or to the city.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

In the interest of keeping our little virtual society here civil, I am rescinding my request for the inclusion of the Swashbukler Core Class.

Arguments either way woill only detract from enjoyment, and my character concept isn't crushed by having togo Fighter/Rogue instead.

I would also like to ask that future DMs/players etc... not use the city that I threw out there (Rivenblight) as a component in their stories, as I am going to *poof, it's gone* the place in order to use it as I envision it (since it is my creation, after all) in another PbP game.

If I might ask, Uriel, while I can see the use of rivenblight as you have described it needing a "swashbuckler" class, does it need "The Swashbuckler cc WOTC, Complete Warrior, 2003"? I've read the book briefly, and remember next to nothing about the class except that it had a fighter bab and probably better reflex and looked finess-y. I guess what I'm asking is if I (or someone) came up independantly with a 'finesse based, semi aristrocratic looking lightly armored fighter' or found a good ogl core class to copy :

1) would you accept that as the primary fighter class of rivenblight and keep the city around, and

2) would inclusion of non SRD but thouroughly OGL content be acceptable to others?

I ask this because this conversation has imo polarized to discussing the options of including closed material vs sticking only to the SRD, when what I was really hoping for in this project was more home grown or home approved, but open, options. That middle ground seems to have been lost along the way except for gods and locations, and talkof PrCs...

(also I've been looking forward to another inn opening. )

Kahuna Burger