(Discussion) General Part V

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dpdx

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Creamsteak said:
On a case by case basis, but yeah.
Hold up a second, CS: on a case-by-case basis? Who's gonna decide which "cases" get considered? [edit: Ain't gonna be me. I vote NO, just so we're clear.]

This is such a bad idea, I can't even tell you.

[edit: And I had to look at that again: "I'm tired of the bureaucratic process?" Are you kidding me? What bureaucratic process!? You and Uriel are the last remaining Judges from the old days of LEW; and when you asked for new Judges, people stepped up and mostly did exactly what you asked them to do. So if there's ANY quote-unquote, "bureaucracy," you done made it, my man.

So WTF this is really all about?]
 
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Creamsteak

Explorer
dpdx said:
Hold up a second, CS: on a case-by-case basis? Who's gonna decide which "cases" get considered? [edit: Ain't gonna be me. I vote NO, just so we're clear.]

Who decides what "cases" get considered? The players. If GW wants to ask if he can switch a ranger out for an approved Urban Ranger variant when it becomes time, then he has submitted that this case be considered. Then it's up to the judges to consider whether GW has a valid and sound reason. I'd say that GWs logic is obviously valid (ranger -> urban ranger because it fits his archetype), and sound (it's a reasonable change for a normal ranger to become an urban ranger, especially at low levels where they still havn't even gained any of the Urban ranger changes save the alternate track feat).

dpdx said:
"I'm tired of the bureaucratic process?" Are you kidding me? What bureaucratic process!? So if there's ANY quote-unquote, "bureaucracy," you done made it, my man.

Yeah, I made the beuracracy. It becomes such when we start changes that never get finished like the Marshall listed above. Despite having debated the subject numerous times, we never actually were able to state whether or not we would allow a non-core non-ogl class like the Marshall because the information could not be rendered publicly available by our limited knowledge of the legal logistics. All of the judges agreed, at the time, that the Marshall was a fine class. We thought it would be an interesting addition to our setting, but there was never any real way to get around the fact that we had no structure for dealing with a non-core non-ogl class. I'm just saying, let's add these two particularly well done archetypical classes to our list of approved content and overstep our legal knowledge for the sake of simplicity. Such is the Beurocracy of discussing something and never ratifying it end.
 

dpdx

Explorer
Creamsteak said:
Who decides what "cases" get considered? The players. If GW...
As long as it's purely for IC and background reasons that we let people swap (versus, say, multi-classing existing PCs with these new archetypes), and it doesn't become a popularity contest where we only do stuff for our friends, I'm okay with anyone who wants to swap it. I don't like adding new core classes under any circumstances (obviously), but I'm under no illusions that it won't pass just because I think it's a bad idea. That said, I'll be asked to vote on people's PCs who want to swap. So I want to know all about the criteria.

Yeah, I made the beuracracy...
Well, if me not wanting to muck up our world with non-OGL content that every person in LEW doesn't have universal access to is considered "bureaucracy," then I'm guilty of "bureaucracy," too. Pull my card, and send me to jail.

Be that as it may, just cause you think it's too cool to do without, Creamsteak, doesn't make it all of a sudden 1) legal to post for common knowledge or 2) universally accessible. And the idea was for LEW to be 1) inclusive of people regardless of disposable income level and other factors; and 2) not get the whole board shut down for doing something legally uncool.

So unless you're looking to get this thing shut down for posting IP, I'd check first that it was both of those things before I had a hissy about the process, and started carte-blanche approving stuff for whole-board use that wasn't OGL. But that's just me.

Come to think of it, maybe that's exactly why your judges before didn't get that stuff approved from the get-go.

Tell me again: if you badly want to PbP with those core classes, it has to be in LEW why...?
 
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Creamsteak

Explorer
Quit going off on such unreal tangents. First off, I'm saying I will make said things available to everyone. Its also not going to violate any laws or policies.
 

dpdx

Explorer
Creamsteak said:
Quit going off on such unreal tangents. First off, I'm saying I will make said things available to everyone. Its also not going to violate any laws or policies.
Honestly, I don't see what's unreal or tangential about it, but I'll tone down the rhetoric all the same - point taken. I also don't see how you can post non-OGL stuff without violating any IP law.

Lemme ask: Why does LEW need two new core classes? I can think of plenty of other stuff to work on that LEW needs more.
 

Manzanita

First Post
OGL stuff

First of all, I'd just like to say I really appreciate all the work & initiative Creamsteak has put into LEW. Certainly its a lot more than I've put in, & I do love this setting. But in general, I'm on dpdx's side in on this issue. As a player, and particularly as a DM, its nice to feel you know what's going on. I feel the core rules give a great variety of classes, races and character possibilities. I feel that keeping LEW rules basic allows new players to jump right in without having to determine exactly what's allowed. It's simpler for the judges too. And posting copywrited material here that's not on the OGL seems pretty risky. If we just said OGL material only, then no more individual decisions and no more beaurocracy.
 

Creamsteak

Explorer
Well, theres no way that we "need" anything in that department. But I think that they are a positive addition if added. Since you don't have this book, it might be difficult to draw the comparison without the material, but I'll try to do it briefly. And I know about a lot of things being worked on in this forum (ever so slowly), but that's another set of issues.

Swashbuckler
The swashbuckler is easier to talk about, in that it fills a niche often sought but difficult to pull off. Rogues and Fighter/Rogues are common classes to take to attempt to play a "swashbuckling" character using weapon finesse and such.

The archetype itself is easily satisfied with the core rules. Light armor, weapon finesse a finessable weapon, and stick to feats that enhance your abilities with the weapon and using it for varied tactics like Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm. Skills need to be bulked up on include tumble, listen, bluff, and many others but the Rogue class should satisfy this. So there is no need for this class to simply satisfy the archetype, on this we can agree I think.

The problem is mechanical more than anything. Fighter/Rogues that try to favor this style have to rely on the rogues sneak attack most of all in order to be successful. But sneak attacking (actually attacking an unaware opponent, or flatfooted person) or feinting in combat are not necessarily what I percieve this sort of character doing. Even using Flanking seems out of character for the archetype. Other high level rogue abilities are interesting, but not exactly what most players envision when creationg such a fighter. The abilities of the rogue, while similar, do not tend to reflect what a player wants from this archetype. The fighter helps alleviate this through feats, but the fighter class is a bit too heavy handed. Modifying a fighter slightly does help though.

What the swashbuckler class does is create a direct path for a player to take a character through that does fit the archetype fairly well. It also gives benefits where a character would expect a swashbuckler to get benefits (dodge bonuses to AC in light or no armor, weapon finesse, combat expertise bonuses, and I need the book in front of me but it's at home...)

This is all IMHO obviously.

The Hexblade is less of a fit though. It is meant to fulfill one type of fighter-mage archetype that has a lot more "fight" in him than the bard. However, the Hexblade is definitely not as precise a fit to an archetype as the Swashbuckler is. It helps to satisfy the "forever cursed" character or the Fighter-Mage, but neither is as common as a swasbuckler. They mirror the Paladin but changed around (instead of smitting, they curse; instead of an aura of resistance, a 12th level hexblade gets an aura of unluck; instead of gaining a flat charisma bonus to all saves the hexblade gains resistance specifically against spells).

Here are some Hexblade abilites I have on my comp:
The hexblade can include his charisma bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. Once per day, as a free action, a hexblade can unleash a curse upon a foe. The target must be visible to the hexblade and within 60 feet. The target of a hexblade's curse takes a -2 penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for 1 hour thereafter. A successful Will save negates the effect. A hexblade can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower and fortitude. If he makes a successful will or fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping hexblade does not gain the benefit of mettle.

But, as I said, the hexblade is just more of an "interest" class than a niche.
 

Creamsteak

Explorer
Manzanita said:
I feel that keeping LEW rules basic allows new players to jump right in without having to determine exactly what's allowed. It's simpler for the judges too. And posting copywrited material here that's not on the OGL seems pretty risky. If we just said OGL material only, then no more individual decisions and no more beaurocracy.
I can agree with that. Personally, I have no intention of using any of the stuff that I've outlined for myself. I'm pretty happy with my one ranger character that "might" multiclass into the druid or cleric at some point.

That said,
There are a few options that I think would be good to add to LEW at some time though. If we agree on that issue when it comes to certain OGL material and houserules material, then beyond the legal/access limitation there is no reason why we can't use a small amount of other material. I think they are fine for our game, and as long as I keep the material available only to players we satisfy the legal and access questions.

I'm not sure whether I would use an email system by request method or a password protected url though. Each of these allow me to limit the availability of the content to people playing in LEW. In one case they would need to email me and I would varify their forum location and the right email. In the other case I would still do that, but the URL would always be up online (and the password for each user name would of course be different and randomely generated).

I don't know about the Hexblade now that I've thought on it a bit more, but I still think that the Swashbuckler, Marshal, and maybe other core classes (the one in the minis handbook for alternative divine casters comes to mind) are solid core classes that players and DMs might find useful.
 
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dpdx

Explorer
Creamsteak said:
Well, theres no way that we "need" anything in that department.
I was thinking elsewise than core classes: namely, we need the better-than-rough-draft map that you taunted us with elsethread. We need a full pantheon with gods and demis from people who take the time necessary to craft them with balance. We need a broad range of PrCs that aren't all about 'make my PC the most powerful mortal in ENWorld.' But mostly, we need the map.

Swashbuckler
The swashbuckler is easier to talk about, in that it fills a niche often sought but difficult to pull off. Rogues and Fighter/Rogues are common classes to take to attempt to play a "swashbuckling" character using weapon finesse and such.

The archetype itself is easily satisfied with the core rules. Light armor, weapon finesse a finessable weapon, and stick to feats that enhance your abilities with the weapon and using it for varied tactics like Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm. Skills need to be bulked up on include tumble, listen, bluff, and many others but the Rogue class should satisfy this. So there is no need for this class to simply satisfy the archetype, on this we can agree I think...
Yeah, which is why I question its necessity as a core class. This could, and should, work as a PrC.

First, I don't think a fighter/rogue necessarily owes his survival to the extra d6es of damage he's doing on a successful sneak attack. You already pointed out the conditions that have to be met for sneak aren't always met that often.

Again, PrC. I can't see someone swashbuckling straight out the box without having been a swabbie first, so to speak. The way you describe it, it begs for prerequisites, even if they're meetable at say, level 5.

The Hexblade is less of a fit though. It is meant to fulfill one type of fighter-mage archetype that has a lot more "fight" in him than the bard.
This one I'm less sure of in any sense. Seems we already have a deity in the Pantheon whose clerics would fit the description of 'bestowing' bad luck on others.

And obviously, this is all IMHO, too.
 

Creamsteak

Explorer
dpdx said:
I was thinking elsewise than core classes: namely, we need the better-than-rough-draft map that you taunted us with elsethread. We need a full pantheon with gods and demis from people who take the time necessary to craft them with balance. We need a broad range of PrCs that aren't all about 'make my PC the most powerful mortal in ENWorld.' But mostly, we need the map.

Map is in a very competent (so competent that he has his hands full with paying jobs) artist. I have a "rough draft" that my friend Kevin and I drew up. It's entertaining and silly looking, and not as good as the other rough, but if you really want a fix I could probably find someone to scan it... heh.


dpdx said:
Yeah, which is why I question its necessity as a core class. This could, and should, work as a PrC.

I can't recall a fitting core one though. There is the duelist though, and a number of elf-based classes that sort of fit the archetype in CW. I don't have anything OGL though. We could probably see one created by a user though, I'm sure someone has a mind and eye for such.

dpdx said:
First, I don't think a fighter/rogue necessarily owes his survival to the extra d6es of damage he's doing on a successful sneak attack. You already pointed out the conditions that have to be met for sneak aren't always met that often.

Well, it's not that I'm saying that the "swashing" fighter/rogue relies heavily on sneak attack, but it is very difficult to defend as a true swashing character (without paying lots for magic enhancement to armor) and will never be able to deal much damage. Theres really no option beyond buy a more expensive weapon. The costs get to be too great, in my experience. You could also opt for the light shield, and pay more money, but you just can't overcome the light damage. A truly roguish character will be more willing to actually fight underhandedly than the way I percieve the swashy.

dpdx said:
Again, PrC. I can't see someone swashbuckling straight out the box without having been a swabbie first, so to speak. The way you describe it, it begs for prerequisites, even if they're meetable at say, level 5.

I think that either a PrC or a Core class are both possible here. I'd be willing to accept either, so long as they feel right and maintain a good balance.

Now, just as a poke at your perspective about additional core classes, I felt that way at first, but since 3.5 I've seen a lot of good alternative core classes. I've gotten sick of people loading games with too many PrCs (especially when you join a game where NOT taking one results in you being weaker because of overpowered PrCs and combos). It is definitely easier to design a balanced class over 20 levels when there is a valid reason, and you can do this with variants as well. Also, the urban ranger variant, while only an altered ranger, is still a new core class in itself.
 

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