Discussion on +x magic items

[ptolemy18]

What about that:
- The Vampirefang Sword heals its wielder for X Hit Points when it strikes a critical hit, since it drains the life energy of the enemy and gives it to the wielder.

- The Quarterstaff of the Wise gives you extra XP for each opponent defeated using it.

- The Thief's Dream Dagger steal X gold coins from the opponent when it strikes a critical hit.

Ok the last two were a joke

Heh... actually, I like both the Vampirefang *and* the Thief's Dream Dagger.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Yes, it makes assumptions about the game world that are contrary to many fantasy stories, but I don't buy that D&D does not produce results in the fantasy genre at all,

You'll never hear me say that. D&D does the fantasy subgenre of D&D, not any other fantasy subgenre.

I'm pretty sure a heck of a lot of people do this. It's not an unreasonable expectation for the world's most popular fantasy roleplaying game, and I've never, ever agreed with the criticisms that say otherwise, and doubly so for ones that say D&D shouldn't be able to emulate fantasy stories.

So, because the D&D subgenre is popular, we should change the D&D game so that you don't have to use another system for emulating your favorite fantasy novel?

Why change something that works?

 

[Imban]

You lost me as soon as you mentioned the "fantasy subgenre of D&D". That's exactly like saying "Lord of the Rings is written in the fantasy subgenre of Lord of the Rings", "A Song of Ice and Fire is written in the fantasy subgenre of A Song of Ice and Fire", or any other statement of that exact nature. Yes, D&D has attracted enough works based on it that you could create a subgenre of "D&D fiction" without it being empty, and of course D&D the system usually is best at representing fiction based on the system itself.

Past that, the statement is ludicrous. Obviously, something specifically designed for the purpose (if properly constructed) would be better suited to exactly emulating a specific other setting or small subgenre, but that's beside the point. If you're trying to argue that Conan the Barbarian is not and should not be the default playstyle of D&D, you won't find any objections here. As soon as you move beyond that and suggest that Conan the Barbarian is not appropriate for D&D because it falls outside of the "D&D subgenre", your argument falls utterly flat to me.

So no, I don't particularly think that the core of D&D should change to help handle those various stories where characters carried powerful items of plot significance from early on in the story. But I see no reason that D&D should scorn supporting this in its inevitable wealth of supplements, because adapting D&D to be more like the group's preferences in fantasy stories has always been the order of the day.

 

[VirgilCaine]

So no, I don't particularly think that the core of D&D should change to help handle those various stories where characters carried powerful items of plot significance from early on in the story. But I see no reason that D&D should scorn supporting this in its inevitable wealth of supplements, because adapting D&D to be more like the group's preferences in fantasy stories has always been the order of the day.

No, no it hasn't been the order of the day. If you want fantasy novel-type fantasy RPGing, there's lots of other systems you could use.

Furthermore, I don't see what relation D&D and fantasy novels have to each other. D&D is based on many things, and there are some things taken from some fantasy novels, but D&D is an amalgam.

There's just as much influence of fantasy novels on D&D, as comics books, fairy tales, pulp horror, science fiction, and sword and sorcery stories, video games, anime, mythology and legends, etc.

So, I don't see a lot of point in changing D&D to accomodate one of it's many, many influences.

Play another game.

 

[delericho]

Yes, D&D has attracted enough works based on it that you could create a subgenre of "D&D fiction" without it being empty, and of course D&D the system usually is best at representing fiction based on the system itself.

Actually, does it even emulate D&D novels particularly well? In the Drizzt novels, characters frequently take damage that slows them down, temporarily or otherwise. At least one character has taken a permanent injury that has never been healed, with magic or otherwise (Bruenor's loss of an eye - impossible in the D&D rules). And, of course, resurrection magic is vanishingly rare in D&D novels, but extremely common in the game.

 

[Imban]

So, I and everyone else who is interested in a specific sort of game that is not precisely this nebulous ideal of "D&D as D&D" should play a system that's likely inferior in many ways and probably has exactly as many problems emulating the source material we would rather base our game on? Really?

Or, you know, we could work on rules to emphasize the elements of D&D we want to emphasize in our individual games and deemphasize the ones we don't. For some people, that will mean rewriting or discarding enough rules that they may as well be playing a different game. For people who want to implement a more minor change - say, the subject I first weighed in on on this thread, which is attempting to have a 4th-level character who starts the game with a +3 keen adamantine longsword named Anduril and is expected to keep it for the remainder of the game, there is literally no reason why I should just give up immediately, go sell my books, and stop playing D&D. In fact, while I wouldn't fault the designers for not doing it - there are a dozen valid reasons why they wouldn't (space, time constraints, lack of playtesting) - I do take offense at the ideas that suggestions for balancing characters who start with more powerful magic items are somehow flat-out bad to include, and likewise suggestions that would help people who like or dislike the (high fantasy, swords-and-sorcery, comic book, fairy tale, pulp horror, science fiction, video game, anime, or myths-and-legends) flavor bring it out in their individual games and settings should be scorned in favor of presenting D&D as a monolithic whole.

If you think I've got any personal interest in changes to D&D to make it more like fantasy novels, you're right only in so far that I'm far more interested in a version of D&D that realizes that groups are drawn to it from many disparate interests and that its players, somewhere, will want to tell stories drawn from all of those sources you stated.

 

[Imban]

Actually, does it even emulate D&D novels particularly well? In the Drizzt novels, characters frequently take damage that slows them down, temporarily or otherwise. At least one character has taken a permanent injury that has never been healed, with magic or otherwise (Bruenor's loss of an eye - impossible in the D&D rules). And, of course, resurrection magic is vanishingly rare in D&D novels, but extremely common in the game.

Well, the general feeling I've noticed in the RPG community is that losing limbs and other necessary body parts without the ability to get them back is kind of lame. Heck, it's considered even lamer than outright death in some circles, so it doesn't surprise me that dismemberment isn't supported in the core rules. It also takes a 13th-level Cleric or 17th-level Druid to repair missing eyes, so it's not all too surprising that Bruenor's never gotten patched up - the Drizzt novels seem to gloss over exactly just how high-level every character in them is, while having them act like "mere mortals." I think that's more a case of their writing and game statistics not matching up, though - from my vague memory of reading Drizzt novels ages ago, I'd have put the dude something like 10 levels lower than he officially is.

(Same with resurrection magic, but Eberron handles this a bit better by severely limiting the amount of 13+ Clerics in the world willing to fix death for a fee. It's so easy to foil Raise Dead that it's not really worth considering.)

 

[VirgilCaine]

So, I and everyone else who is interested in a specific sort of game that is not precisely this nebulous ideal of "D&D as D&D" should play a system that's likely inferior in many ways and probably has exactly as many problems emulating the source material we would rather base our game on? Really?

Uh, right. I guess you could choose to use a non-D&D system that is also not a good fit AND has mechanical deficiencies. But my point is that there are different systems out there that are better at doing different kinds of fantasy than D&D.

 

[Imban]

I don't think continuing this particular line of argument will do much more than drag the thread down, but I honestly haven't found a system that I prefer over D&D's ability to be close enough to whatever fantasy I want to play in that it can be quickly made to fit. If you have any actual recommendations of (non-rules-light) RPGs that are better for the various influences you mentioned, wing me a PM - I'd like to hear them.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Well, I would roll the Cloak of Resistance into the 'native' bonuses provided by the class, and the Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armour rolled into a class-based Defense bonus, and then eliminate these items entirely. I might also advocate giving all characters a +2 bonus to all ability scores at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 (instead of levels 4, 8...), and getting rid of the stat boosters.

I would also get rid of a 'vanilla' Sword +1, and instead require all items to carry one or more additional qualities. I would also tie the power of those qualities to the power of the sword - so you can't get a +1 shocking holy flaming bane long sword, but might be able to get a +5 shocking holy flaming bane long sword. Or something like that.

I would also like to see a lot more items built with a set of related powers along a theme. The latest Pathfinder has a good example: Boots of the Mire, give the ability to walk on water in the marshes, to ignore movement penalties in marshes, to leave no trace in marshes, and give a +2 Fort bonus vs. poisons and diseases. Items like that have a whole lot more flavour and interest than yet another Cloak of Resistance +2.

Oh, I'm also mostly in favour of items being fewer, more powerful, and gaining in power along with the owner. Sort of like Weapons of Legacy, but perhaps built better. Indeed, the best way to handle this might be to make a Legacy Item talent tree available to all classes, providing exactly this facility.

This says it all for me. I really like these ideas and it is the very way that I'd like to see things go myself (para 1 brings to mind the Conan OGL ability bonus).