Disdain for new fantasy

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I understand that that's the general thinking behind the claim, but it's just so technically, factually wrong on so many levels...

Exactly.

 

[Kesh]

American comics don't generally place their superheroic characters in a fantasy setting, whereas Japanese manga, anime, and video games often do -- and that Eastern style of fantasy is influencing western fantasy games. Exalted is explicit about this, D&D less so.

You've obviously never read any X-Men or Fantastic Four. Hell, the Avengers have had Thor on their team forever, and fought other Asgardian gods! Visiting fantasy (and fantastic) locales happens all the time in American superhero comics.

 

[Kesh]

Oh, man, believe me: What's he's describing is extremely anime. This character type (or character role, maybe) is almost ubiquitous in action/fantasy anime. Wherever you've got one big-eyes, spiky-haired, boisterous dude, there's always got to be his rival/antagonist with narrow eyes, long hair, and a calm (often standoffish) demeanor.

Hell, let me go look up some shows known in the U.S. and see if I can point out the applicable characters... The most obvious one would be Sasuke from Naruto. I think Vegeta from Dragonball Z probably fits (I've noticed he's got a weird and completely inexplicable female fanbase). Damn, what else would people recognize? I guess Wolfwood takes this role on Trigun, but I don't think I've ever seen an episode with that character... Oh, and what's-his-name from Berserk, the guy who later turned into a demon and primary antagonist, he's definitely that type. Oh, and Jin on Samurai Champloo.

I haven't been watching much anime, lately, and any time I have it's generally been pirated stuff, so I have pretty much no idea what's actually making it to American TV (and the stuff that makes it to American TV is almost always stuff I'd never watch).

I haven't seen Naruto, Berserk or Samurai Champloo, so I can't comment there. Vegeta? Eh, not really. Vegeta was an antagonist for most of DBZ, and only fell into the "secondary hero" role around the Cell Saga storyline. There really wasn't anything mysterious or Shoujo about him at all, he was just an anti-hero at that point.

Wolfwood... maybe. I can see how he sort-of fits the role. He's certainly not more powerful than Vash, nor does he defeat him in battle. And he's anything but shoujo! He's a slick ladies-man with a mysterious past.

Generally, I don't see the stereotype in the anime I've watched. Not as described, anyway. The closest I could associate with that is Sesshomaru from Inu Yasha, and he's an outright villain rather than a secondary character.

 

[DarkKestral]

OTOH, I'm still perfectly willing to play in yours if those elments are included. It would take more than a warforged with spikey violet hair (OK, a wig) wielding a sword bigger than his body to scare me away from a good gaming session.

I'm getting the image of a warforged clown who weilds the sword as part of his act...

Don't ask why. Maybe he's a juggler?

 

[Mercule]

You've obviously never read any X-Men or Fantastic Four. Hell, the Avengers have had Thor on their team forever, and fought other Asgardian gods! Visiting fantasy (and fantastic) locales happens all the time in American superhero comics.

I don't read American comics that involved aliens or fantastic places like Asgard. Which means I pretty much don't read comics anymore.

Even then, there is something about the presentation of anime that makes it less palatable. I tend to believe it's the root in Japanese mythos and culture, but I could be wrong. It something close to camp, even in the anime that I've been told is supposed to be serious.

 

[blargney the second]

The anime I usually watch has fascinatingly involved multi-episodic story lines. Maybe that's what some people object to.

 

[WizarDru]

Hell, let me go look up some shows known in the U.S. and see if I can point out the applicable characters... The most obvious one would be Sasuke from Naruto. I think Vegeta from Dragonball Z probably fits (I've noticed he's got a weird and completely inexplicable female fanbase). Damn, what else would people recognize? I guess Wolfwood takes this role on Trigun, but I don't think I've ever seen an episode with that character... Oh, and what's-his-name from Berserk, the guy who later turned into a demon and primary antagonist, he's definitely that type. Oh, and Jin on Samurai Champloo.

Ah, OK. You're describing a much different archetype than what specifically described.

He's generally an anti hero, mysterious and secretive, has powers that seem similar to the main character but which are slightly sinister, physically not that buff, but highly attractive and intelligent, and generally has much cooler clothes. Usually a dark trench coat kind of wardrobe.

Although again, that's not a uniquely anime archetype. Heck, the characters you just described don't fit his description. Sasuke doesn't wear trenchcoats and dress in black (he wears shorts, for heaven's sake), but he certainly does fit into the 'brooding, aloof loner' category. Vegeta isn't a brooder, he's just a villain who ends up working with the good guys, not unlike Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer (and there's several such characters in DBZ). Wolfwood spends half of his time as comic relief...he has a tragic past, but he's another archetype entirely: the-joker-who's-crying-on-the-inside. He does wear black, but he's hardly brooding. None of them sound at all like the Shadowcaster. Heck, the only character who really fits the description I can think of is either from the live-action Sentai show, Kamen Rider or Condor Joe from Gatchaman....circa the 70s.

Now, what I think you're describing is the hero-rival archetype....and he appears a good number of times in anime, to be sure...but I wasn't arguing that. Sasuke and Vegeta certainly are arch-rival characters during their initial appearances; Wolfwood isn't. I can name a LOT of anime where there is a teammate/good-guy who starts off as a rival. Heck, we could start as far back as Racer X from Speed Racer (aka Mach Go! Go! Go!). But none of them say 'Shadowcaster', to me.

(As for tailoring the characters to appeal to female readers....well, not so much. While a lot of girls read Shonen Jump (it's actually the most popular manga book for girls, despite it's name), the titles they read are NOT the ones we're discussing. The most popular series for female readers are not fighting action stories like Naruto or DBZ, but comedy or suspense like Prince of Tennis or Death Note.)

 

[WizarDru]

I don't read American comics that involved aliens or fantastic places like Asgard. Which means I pretty much don't read comics anymore.

Heh. With that qualifier, it's pretty much a sure bet that you haven't read any American comics in decades, unless you were reading Millie the Model or Hot Rod Racers.

 

[Desdichado]

I've tried over and over again to give anime a fair shake, and I'm finally forced to conclude that I simply must not like it. Even the fairly serious stuff that includes elements that are near and dear to my heart are at best, "yeah, that's OK, I guess," but I'm left thinking of how it could have been executed so much better.

That said, I'm not against "new fantasy" being injected into D&D. For that matter, a lot of "new fantasy" isn't really new. There seems to be a big upsurge in pulp elements across the board in gaming, not just in D&D, in recent years. A lot of this so called "new fantasy" would have been right at home as a Weird tale in the 30s or 40s.

 

[Nifft]

I've tried over and over again to give anime a fair shake, and I'm finally forced to conclude that I simply must not like it.

It's not for everyone.

I guess a lot of people get defensive about Anime because the new accusation ("This thing in D&D is bad because it's too Anime!") isn't fair to either the D&D mechanic in question or to Anime.

Cheers, -- N