Disney Star Wars Is It Actually That Bad?

[Gradine]

This I didn't really get. Maybe I misunderstood what they were going for here. I always assumed people other than those with family members with the force also would be force sensitive (that is was either something that kind of bounced around, sometimes could be passed down, and maybe could even be cultivated through effort). This struck me as them saying "Everyone now has the force". I tended to see Luke being strong in the force as not much different from someone who has a natural aptitude for playing music whose father was also a good musician. Or the son of a boxer who is naturally talented as well. That doesn't mean there aren't other people out there, naturally talented whose parents weren't boxing champions or concert pianists. And it doesn't mean something with less natural aptitude can't get good through hard work and training. Something I would much rather see than "Everyone is strong int he force now: which is how I kind of read that scene, and a world populated by Jedi seems like it would be a little too gonzo), is someone who is only slightly force sensitive developing into a powerful Jedi through training and cultivation of knowledge about the force. To me the needing to train to be exceptional is an important part of this kind of movie. This scene makes me feel like I was missing some kind of conversation or debate in the fandom that was circulating at the time (which I think I got vague traces of, but really I don't get too deep into Star Wars conversations usually).

The mistake here isn't that this scene is in conversation with the fandom. What it is in conversation with is all of the preceding movies and Rey's own misplaced needs. It ties to the reveal about Rey's parentage, her need to be someone important. But she's not. She's nobody. Because all of that stuff she thought was so important wasn't (her need for her parents to be somebody being another flaw she has to deal with in the movie). It says that the force, or even just being a hero that the galaxy needs, doesn't have to mean being born into it. She's not some prophesied hero with a monstrous midichlorian count like Anakin, or even his son. And when this kid, this nobody, uses the force, that tells us that maybe this kid, this nobody, will be a new hero. That it could be anyone. From anywhere.

Of course, Rise of Skywalker proceeds to reverse basically every last one of those revelations and themes, which is why it's a terrible movie, but I've already established who I believe to be to blame for that.

 

[Mercurius]

Now see, I want to take all that you have to say to heart, and I generally do, but then I get to stuff like this, the baseless claims of "mary sue", and it becomes hard to take seriously.

But this is the problem, Gradine. It is almost like you need to write off what I'm saying as either stupidity or some malicious ploy or bigotry, and thus not to "take seriously." Or you use phrases like "willful refusal." I mean, come on. It is very uncharitable.

People see things differently, have different impressions and feelings and interpretations.

I'm not saying Rey is a complete Mary Sue, btw, just that she has elements of it. And yes, I feel more so than Luke. Her "faults" are less intrinsic to her character, and more like "I just haven't figure this out yet." Luke actually came across as a bit of a nincompoop, and veered perilessly close to the Dark Side.

EDIT: See my response to Bedrock a bit below re: Mary Sueism, especially about it being a red herring.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Now see, I want to take all that you have to say to heart, and I generally do, but then I get to stuff like this, the baseless claims of "mary sue", and it becomes hard to take seriously. Rey has plenty of faults. She in fact spends the entirety of The Last Jedi failing until like... the last thing she does. Which is move a bunch of rocks. Rey spends the entirety of The Rise of Skywalker rushing headlong into every moment without taking stock or even considering the people who are trying to help her.

While I am not persuaded by the criticism, I also don't think it means a person is arguing in bad faith. If someone thinks a character is mary sue, and you think it isn't, then make an argument why it isn't (which you have done). I think one of the most frustrating things through this whole thing, has been watching fans of a franchise go at each others throats and read things into their opinions to extract moral evaluations of the person themselves. These are movies. People have strong opinions about them. Sometimes they have opinions I find very stupid or pointless. It just means they had a different experience and different expectations.

I just think Mary Sue is one of those overused critiques and I am not even sure it leads to bad art to have the occasional Mary Sue. I've seen posts where someone was making the case that Dante was a Mary Sue in the Divine Comedy. Whether or not that is the case, I don't care. The Divine Comedy is perfect in my opinion as written.

For me the bottom line is more: Do I like this character, do I want to follow this character, am I interested in and worried on behalf on this character, is this movie experience moving me and compelling me. Someone can point out after the fact that the character in question wasn't three dimensional, that it committed one of the many cinema sins, but all that matters to me is that honest reaction I had to the movie. I don't care if people think I am unintelligent for having that honest opinion, or if they think it makes me a snob to have it. I just want to be comfortable enough to give my honest reaction.

 

[Mercurius]

I tend to agree with this. He is great in everything I've seen him in (I first saw him in Agora and loved that movie). But beyond what natural charm he was able to bring to the screen (which isn't insignificant) the character did not quite fill the shoes of the Han type (whereas I felt Rey filled the Luke shoes pretty well).

I think John Bodega got told three different things, one for each movie, none of them every coming together. His character was really interesting when they first introduced him. Then they kind of dropped all that stuff about him being a storm trooper (and whatever they had planned for him and Po)and we got a buddy/love section with him and Rose (which I thought worked). Then it is like they just didn't know what to do with him in the third movie. They gave him a girlfriend and it's like he just faded into the background. And there was also apparently something very important he needed to tell Rey, but I don't think they ever even figured out what that was (unless I missed the reveal when I stepped out for a moment). I could have enjoyed a thorough treatment of what they started with in the first film, or where they went int he second. But by the third, if you liked Finn and was interested in seeing where his story went, the third film gave you nothing satisfying at all

At the very least, it was a problem of too many cooks in the kitchen.

But yeah, I agree. Overall Rey was the best of the three, as far as "filling shoes."

 

[Mercurius]

I don't even think the criticism of a mary sue, the way people use it today, even when its accurate, is valid. The force did seem to come a little too easy to Rey, but I think there was an in movie explanation for that. I wouldn't personally considerer a mary sue. And she did have to train to develop her abilities further (I really would have liked to see them lean into things like the accidental killing of another character to emphasize this----which doesn't happen when you take the death away a moment later). There are tons of genres where characters are just great from the beginning or early on in the story (I've seen a ton of wonderful wuxia movies where this is the case for example). You could argue a character like Neo is a Mary Sue as well. I found him perfectly entertaining. People invoking mary sue doesn't really change my opinion of a character if I like that character and the actor works well in the role. To me 'thats a mary sue' is the same as someone complaining about lens flare. It seems like a criticism people learn largely online but never notice unless others point it out to them (it doesn't strike me as an authentic critique)

But I do think the Last Jedi handled this aspect of her character better. She actually had to go to the temple and train. That is a time tested trope, and gave me 36 Chamber of Shaolin vibes. Entirely appropriate in my view.

My only critique here is I do think JJ sped things up with her in the first film to save time so he could have a fast paced movie. I would have liked to see more slow down in The Force Awakens (which we got but with Han, which doesn't really afford the kind of tutelage we got from Ben with Luke in the original).

I don't even have an issue with "Mary Sueism," at least in some contexts. To some degree, the whole trope of the "Promised One" is fraught with Mary Suesm. And to be clear, I've probably used the term "Mary Sue" only a few times in my life.

My point was more to illustrate the way (I think) the characters were conceived: not as distinct unto themselves and build out of the personality's of the actors involved, but more as variations on characters from the original trilogy and/or ciphers for this or that story element. Focusing on my usage of Mary Sue is a bit of a red herring (to say the least).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The mistake here isn't that this scene is in conversation with the fandom. What it is in conversation with is all of the preceding movies and Rey's own misplaced needs. It ties to the reveal about Rey's parentage, her need to be someone important. But she's not. She's nobody.

I mean, she was nobody.

But as they say ... Somehow, Palpatine returned.

 

[Gradine]

But this is the problem, Gradine. It is almost like you need to write off what I'm saying as either stupidity or some malicious ploy or bigotry, and thus not to "take seriously." Or you use phrases like "willful refusal." I mean, come on. It is very uncharitable.

I tend to think describing Rey as "Luke but without any faults" is pretty damn uncharitable too. I get that there's a line between a fictional character and living human person, but when 95% of this "debate" boils down to vitriol based in real-world biases and bigotry, I'm more inclined to see that line as blurrier than it might otherwise be.

People see things differently, have different impressions and feelings and interpretations.

I'm not saying Rey is a complete Mary Sue, btw, just that she has elements of it. And yes, I feel more so than Luke. Her "faults" are less intrinsic to her character, and more like "I just haven't figure this out yet." Luke actually came across as a bit of a nincompoop, and veered perilessly close to the Dark Side.

There is no such things as "having elements" of a Mary Sue. There's not a half-Sue. It's kind of an all-or-nothing designation. If she is perfect and flawless and always succeeds, she is a Mary Sue. If she has flaws, and faults, and experiences failure, she is not. And she does, objectively, have flaws, and faults, and experiences failure. She's not a Mary Sue. Not at all.

Now see, Luke's major fault, as you describe is intrinsic to the setting. He almost falls to dark side. That's interesting, but not exactly relatable. Sure, there's very human passions underneath that near-fall, but hey, turns out Luke is a pretty good character.

On the other hand, Rey is extremely insecure about her heritage. She's myopic, and so self-absorbed that she consistently ignores her friends and leaves them behind. These are super relatable, human flaws, and they drive a lot of her actions. I don't know how much more "inherent to her character" you need a flaw to get. She tries to get Luke to help out The Resistance, or at the very least train her. She fails. She tries to find some great truth in the cave. She fails. (This failure is pretty interesting because it should have been a great revelation for her, but she completely missed the point, because she wasn't prepared to be open-minded enough to see herself as the answer to all her insecurities). She tries to turn Kylo back towards the light. She fails. To say nothing of the clown show that is Episode IX's plot progression.

So when you blithely drop that Rey is "Luke without any faults", you're communicating, at best, that you've either completely missed or chosen to not count the variety of faults she demonstrates throughout the film. At worst, you're echoing the worst of the misogyny that has been levied against the films and her character in general. Now, I have zero doubts that that is how you really feel, but you need to be prepared to back up a statement that is otherwise inherently linked with online bigotry and hatred, and given the text we have available I have no idea how you possible could do that.

 

[Gradine]

I mean, she was nobody.

But as they say ... Somehow, Palpatine returned.

Hey, this is what The Last Jedi's critics wanted. I take no pleasure in any buyer's remorse they may have over it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The mistake here isn't that this scene is in conversation with the fandom. What it is in conversation with is all of the preceding movies and Rey's own misplaced needs. It ties to the reveal about Rey's parentage, her need to be someone important. But she's not. She's nobody. Because all of that stuff she thought was so important wasn't (her need for her parents to be somebody being another flaw she has to deal with in the movie). It says that the force, or even just being a hero that the galaxy needs, doesn't have to mean being born into it. She's not some prophesied hero with a monstrous midichlorian count like Anakin, or even his son. And when this kid, this nobody, uses the force, that tells us that maybe this kid, this nobody, will be a new hero. That it could be anyone. From anywhere.

Of course, Rise of Skywalker proceeds to reverse basically every last one of those revelations and themes, which is why it's a terrible movie, but I've already established who I believe to be to blame for that.

But that is also clearly part of a conversation that was going on among fans. And she was a hero with a monsterous midochlorian count, just one that wasn't a skywalker. She is definitely depicted as being strong in the force.

I have no problem with Rey being a nobody. There are lots of movies where a nobody rises up to be a somebody and those can be cool. I just felt like the movie seemed overly proud of itself for making this kind of step and like there was a conversation I was missing (which fair enough was with the franchise itself: and again there that is something that I don't really get). I just don't need a star wars movie that is a conversation with the franchise itself, or with the previous movie. WIth Last Jedi, I got a conversation with the whole franchise, with Rise of Skywalker I got a conversation with Last Jedi. I also think the whole thing of setting her up to be a Skywalker or something surprising (where its clear everyone wants to know who she is related to), and then knocking that down and saying she is a nobody, doesn't feel wholly satisfying. Again stuff ike that felt like the movie having a conversation with itself. The self awareness of the dialogue in the scene bothered me as well. but the idea of that scene with her being told she was a nobody though didn't bother me that much because I think it served a similar function to the scene where Vader says he is lukes father and we are supposed to not really know for sure until the next movie. Again the scene was entertaining. I liked both actors. I liked the action. There was emotion underneath everything. I just felt it would have been better for that emotion to be less about the meta of star wars and more about Rey and Kylo Ren

I think the reason the scene with the kid bugs me is it is overly sentimental or again too meta. I don't mind the sentiment you are describing itself (I think this idea that anyone anywhere is important, or can be important is a good one). I don't like elitism in real life. But I don't feel validated because Rian Johnson has declared everyone can be special in a Star Wars movie. I can handle there being a star wars universe that is a little unfair in force distribution. I think that is really what bugs me about it. I feel like I am being patronized a little by the movies (again, I don't go to a star wars film for personal validation, I want to be moved, thrilled, and have a spectacular experience).

Same thing with Luke and Kylo. There was so much ground there for real drama between those characters. I just never bought that luke would almost kill his own nephew, and I never really bought he would go into seclusion like that over the issue (this is the guy who believed Vader could be redeemed, so surely he would feel similarly with his sister's son). I was really hoping for more of an emotional meeting of those two characters. Whatever Luke thinks of what Kylo has become that is still his Nephew, there is still going to be love there. I just didn't feel like in the movie.

Again a good movie. But there are a lot of things that I could quibble about. I think the other big thing for me was the joke it makes of Hux. Not only was that scene way too zany for the film (not just the franchise but also the film we are in), and kind of popped me out, but it took a really menacing character and deflated them. The films needed a menacing character like that beyond just Kylo. Hux's treatment in the third movie wasn't any better.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, she was nobody.

But as they say ... Somehow, Palpatine returned.

The palatine return looked like a cocaine fueled ending if I've ever seen one. That needed so much more justification and explanation. But it just kept getting more confusing. And it looked absolutely awful. I can forgive the questionable return of the emperor because I like the actor who played him, but they needed to ground that in some real interactions and some slow dialogue scenes. To me that ending looked like a video game not a movie.