Divine Challenge at the end of your turn
- Thread starter Pielorinho
- Start date
He's talking about other powers and abilities that let you mark targets, like Piercing Smite. It's possible to have more than one target marked at a time, but those marks are not part of he Divine Challenge power. You can only use Divine Challenge on one target.
dcyale
First Post
When I read Divine Challenge I thought it meant something different from everyone so far- at least my understanding of what people are saying.
In the sentence, “On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged
or challenge a different target” I took “On your turn” to mean the next turn. In other words, the paladin moves to and attacks monster A. He thinks monster B is going after someone else so as a minor he challenges Monster B, who is not adjacent to him. His turn ends.
I thought Monster B had the challenge at this point, but on his turn, his next turn in other words, the paladin had to engage or end adjacent to monster B, or challenge someone else.
This would also make the last part of the sentence, “or challenge a different target” make sense. You can only divine challenge once per turn so this sentence must apply to a turn that starts with some target already being marked with the paladin’s divine challenge. Any other interpretation leads to that part of the sentence being totally nonsensical. Not even an action point will let a paladin challenge more than once in a turn in light of the sentence, “You can use divine challenge once per turn.”
And why didn’t the authors just say “By the end of your turn” instead of “On your turn” if that’s what they meant.
I think it also makes more sense when read with the top of the entry. “The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail
to engage the target.”
Does this make sense to anyone else? Of course it wouldn’t be the first time I was the only person to agree with me.
Cheese: I guess all paladins should carry a bag of rocks they can throw at marked monsters to keep the challenge going. Doesn’t matter if they hit or not, as long as they make the attack. It’s cheaper than daggers.
More cheese: The rouge readies an action to move by the monster after the paladin divine challenges it. The Paladin challenges from 5 squares away, the rouge’s readied moves goes off, the monster makes the choice… take the damage or forego the OA? And if it takes the OA it’s at –2. Seems like it would work under the RAW. Maybe it’s just smart, not cheese? And this would seem to work no matter which interpertation of challenge you use.
In the sentence, “On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged
or challenge a different target” I took “On your turn” to mean the next turn. In other words, the paladin moves to and attacks monster A. He thinks monster B is going after someone else so as a minor he challenges Monster B, who is not adjacent to him. His turn ends.
I thought Monster B had the challenge at this point, but on his turn, his next turn in other words, the paladin had to engage or end adjacent to monster B, or challenge someone else.
This would also make the last part of the sentence, “or challenge a different target” make sense. You can only divine challenge once per turn so this sentence must apply to a turn that starts with some target already being marked with the paladin’s divine challenge. Any other interpretation leads to that part of the sentence being totally nonsensical. Not even an action point will let a paladin challenge more than once in a turn in light of the sentence, “You can use divine challenge once per turn.”
And why didn’t the authors just say “By the end of your turn” instead of “On your turn” if that’s what they meant.
I think it also makes more sense when read with the top of the entry. “The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail
to engage the target.”
Does this make sense to anyone else? Of course it wouldn’t be the first time I was the only person to agree with me.
Cheese: I guess all paladins should carry a bag of rocks they can throw at marked monsters to keep the challenge going. Doesn’t matter if they hit or not, as long as they make the attack. It’s cheaper than daggers.
More cheese: The rouge readies an action to move by the monster after the paladin divine challenges it. The Paladin challenges from 5 squares away, the rouge’s readied moves goes off, the monster makes the choice… take the damage or forego the OA? And if it takes the OA it’s at –2. Seems like it would work under the RAW. Maybe it’s just smart, not cheese? And this would seem to work no matter which interpertation of challenge you use.
[duplicate message deleted- stupid computer!]
FireLance
Legend
I'll be frank: I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the challenge disappears if the paladin failed to engage the target by the end of his next turn (it could have been an informal fix posted somewhere on ENWorld), and I played it that way for my first few 4e sessions. However, this not what it says in the PH power description.
Rocks are pretty much a waste of the paladin's standard action, though. Effectively giving up your own standard action just to ensure that another opponent doesn't attack an ally or takes damage if he does only really makes sense against an Elite or Solo opponent.
I vote for smart. Fortunately, rogues don't have the baggage from previous editions carried by paladins, so this tactic won't be looked on with disapproval.
dcyale
First Post
Actually, I should have been more specific- I was thinking of a situation where, for whatever reason, the paladin couldn't get up to engage directly. Throw a rock and you keep the challenge going. Maybe a five foot hallway, the fighter is in the front with the monster, and the paladin is in the back?
On my turn, I changed who I challenged.
Yes, but Divine Challenge does not state you need to engage. It says you need to engage OR pick a new target.
If I move away, I cannot apply the only portion of engage that mentions end of turn: being next to the enemy. Why at this point, I have failed to engage. There is no reason one clause of one half of one definition in the power should apply to entire power.
The difference is that DC doesn't do anything until after your turn. Movement does. In that case, movement is vital and in my reading of DC when it is used is incidental making the game easier and simpler.
Hey Hyp, can you address the other points:
- D&D Experience issues are addressed without limiting to immediate engagement
- Negating Divine Challenge remote enemies negates the paladin's defender role
- This isn't an abuse of the rules any more than other perfectly legal tactics
- The choice of engage or target is mentioned twice
- DMG "say yes" advice
I'd also like to ask which reading is simpler: each turn engage or target OR if you challenge you must engage before the end of your turn. If this edition's goal is simplicity, it should figure into our reading.
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That is exactly how I read it and I think it is the only way all the text makes sense.
Arrows are cheap, have a longer range and more damage. Neither reading stops archer paladins.
The paladin could do the same by moving adjacent to the monster. This what I call a sucker bet for the monster. It is a tactic that helps allies move around the board which is a focus of 4e. It isn't cheese that much as the damage is small and the monster has a choice. I'll note from the other topic in this thread, a paladin can Challenge a monster from one side and a fighter can mark the same monster from the other side. Either choice for the monster is bad: attack the paladin at -2 or attack the fighter and take damage. I don't see this as cheese, it is the tactics of 4e.
Stormtalon
First Post
Actually, a fighter's mark supercedes a paladin's mark/challenge and vice versa; one cannot be marked by two or more enemies at the same time. As a tangentially-related aside, note that mechanics like Hunter's Quarry and Warlock Curses aren't technically marks, so you can have a guy who's Fighter-marked/Quarried/Cursed or a guy who's Challenged/Quarried/Cursed but you cannot have someone who's Marked/Challenged/Quarried/Cursed.
True, you can only be marked by one enemy, but the challenge doesn't go away, only the Marked status was changed.
