DM Advice: handling 'he can't talk to me like that' ~cuts NPC throat~ players.

billd91 said:
This line of argument is getting so attenuated that it's making little sense. The PCs have no natural constituency like a real Duke would, plus we already know the locals fear them and seem to despise them as well. We know little about their relationship with the king or arbiter but, as bad as that could be, there's going to be no rallying around the PCs in this case. We already know that from the OP.

But your argument does illustrate the difference between a legit Duke and a band of elite, even super-powerful mercenaries. The Duke can probably count on the locals backing him unless he's a real bad despot. Depending on how powerful the domain is in resources, value, men, the king may have to tread lightly around a Duke's privilege, even at the expense of enforcing royal law. But a mercenary group usually has none of that and can not expect to keep whatever they have of it long. Other than the practical considerations of how to deal with them, the king has a much freer hand in what he can do and will face little opposition to enforcing the royal will.

You just summed up why I have issues with DnD at high levels. Unless you have players willing to not act like rogue states or punks the game becomes one where everyone has to start ignoring just how powerful the PCs are. The players pretend that they can't wipe out the kings army and the DM pretends that the king is really powerful. Or if they choose to act like that the DM either has two choices bringing in more powerful NPCs to challenge them which begs the queation of where were they up until now or just throwing up your arms ending the game and starting one with 1st level PCs.

I said this in the thread about Shadowrun one of the reasons I love Shadowrun is that your PCs may grow in personal power but they will never be Superman invincible to the mere mortals all around them.
 

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Elf Witch said:
You just summed up why I have issues with DnD at high levels. Unless you have players willing to not act like rogue states or punks the game becomes one where everyone has to start ignoring just how powerful the PCs are. The players pretend that they can't wipe out the kings army and the DM pretends that the king is really powerful. Or if they choose to act like that the DM either has two choices bringing in more powerful NPCs to challenge them which begs the queation of where were they up until now or just throwing up your arms ending the game and starting one with 1st level PCs.

I said this in the thread about Shadowrun one of the reasons I love Shadowrun is that your PCs may grow in personal power but they will never be Superman invincible to the mere mortals all around them.

How about pretending neither side wants to provoke the other side? And tells their henchmen and underlings so?

I got no trouble running powerful parties, I just assume they are not treated like beggars, but like the power they are. It's not about ignoring their power, it's taking the power and the responsibiluty and running with it. Quite fun.

But - and this is not aimed at you, Elf Witch - one does not treat the PCs like some commoners anymore.
 

Fenes said:
If he has idiots like that arbiter on the payroll, who don't even know how to handle PCs without getting killed, then no, he'll probably be hated by the population ("That despot! He sent us this disrespectful clout, who tried to order our good duke around, and when we defended ourselves, he had the duke hung! To Arms!")

Ah... "the PCs killed him, therefor he must have been incompetent" argument. A classic fallacy.
 

roguerouge said:
Ah... "the PCs killed him, therefor he must have been incompetent" argument. A classic fallacy.

No, the "he did not even want to talk to them" evidence. You simply don't treat people like that.

Seriously, I can't imagine a politician or arbiter acting that stupid. If it had been a PC, we'd all laugh at how he ignopred the signs of impeding violence, and provoked the party.
 

Fenes said:
How about pretending neither side wants to provoke the other side? And tells their henchmen and underlings so?

I got no trouble running powerful parties, I just assume they are not treated like beggars, but like the power they are. It's not about ignoring their power, it's taking the power and the responsibiluty and running with it. Quite fun.

But - and this is not aimed at you, Elf Witch - one does not treat the PCs like some commoners anymore.

That is how we play it as I have said I play with a group who values role playing. The situation with the arbitor would never have happened in my group. If the arbitor had attacked subdual damage would have been the order of the day.

If an NPC mouths off we don't kill him we try and find out why he has a problem with the group.

Unless we are going up against an evil ruler the group respects the good ruler we consider him an ally and we treat him with respect.

We get treated with respect not because we are powerful and can wipe out the kingdom but because we behave in a way that other good people willing give us respect.

The problem though is that I have seen and read on various boards the problems that happen when players play their supposed good PCs as nothing more than thugs. When that happens there is nothing in the rules that really supports stopping them unless you suddenly make every king and guardsmen as powerful as the party.
 

Elf Witch said:
That is how we play it as I have said I play with a group who values role playing. The situation with the arbitor would never have happened in my group. If the arbitor had attacked subdual damage would have been the order of the day.

If an NPC mouths off we don't kill him we try and find out why he has a problem with the group.

Unless we are going up against an evil ruler the group respects the good ruler we consider him an ally and we treat him with respect.

We get treated with respect not because we are powerful and can wipe out the kingdom but because we behave in a way that other good people willing give us respect.

The problem though is that I have seen and read on various boards the problems that happen when players play their supposed good PCs as nothing more than thugs. When that happens there is nothing in the rules that really supports stopping them unless you suddenly make every king and guardsmen as powerful as the party.

Well, in some cases, there's supposedly good kings and their men acting as bullies too.
 

Fenes said:
No, the "he did not even want to talk to them" evidence. You simply don't treat people like that.

Seriously, I can't imagine a politician or arbiter acting that stupid. If it had been a PC, we'd all laugh at how he ignopred the signs of impeding violence, and provoked the party.

Actually people do behave like that. politician and lawmen often do. Why because they have the goverment and law behind them. They can get away with it because a person would have to be either stupid, insane or willing to die to kill them for behaving this way.

It is just insane the way high level DnD is written that it can't emulate the power countries and law enforcement have.

In Shadowrun my PC may decide to kill a mouthy lone star officer and if I have enough resources I may be able to buy a new ID so they don't hunt me down. If I am high level corp person Lonestar may not be able to touch me outright but they can and may hire other runners to take me out or kidnap me. And there is a chance they will be able to pull it off. All with in the rules without the DM cheating.
 

I read this whole thing, and I'm inclined to agree with Hong, at least partially. You have no idea how much that saddens me.

Looking at this the way it'd be in my game, uh, yeah, it's evil. When the king's man says that he intends to do something (all that was said, according to the poster, was, "I'm taking the child."), and refuses to answer your questions (which he doesn't actually have to answer, since he is the authority figure, and you aren't), legitimate options include agreeing, using your own political influence to deal with the situation, or refusing and asking for a neutral political rep to deal with this situation through legal channels, or even just running away to get to a political person with as much weight as the person you're running from. You don't generally, uh, kill that person and then desecrate the body. Anyone who finds killing someone based on the evidence provided by the original poster to be an acceptable solution would not enjoy my game... and may have some issues to work through.

Looking at this from a game-design perspective, though, I find the problem interesting. A lot of people are insisting that the players should get to do whatever they like, and it isn't fun to have consequences like other people want. I disagree with their opinion, but ultimately, I think they're on the track of the right question, which is, "In this campaign, where does the fun come from?"

In some campaigns, the fun comes from unlocking a deep story. The price you pay for that fun is some railroading, or, if not railroading, a dearth of other things to do -- you can spend all day talking to the merchant, yeah, but the only real thing of interest is the cave where all the local kids have been disappearing.

In some campaigns, the fun comes from wandering around and doing whatever comes into your head. The price you pay for that fun is the lack, usually, of a really deep story, since you're essentially sandboxing, and any story that you come up with is limited by what the DM can come up with on the spur of the moment.

In some campaigns, the fun comes from getting more powerful and making a bigger boom as you kill monsters. The price you pay for that fun can come in the form of a story limitation (you just get pointed at big nasties) or an exploration limitation (you just get pointed at one dungeon, so the DM knows where you'll be next session).

In the original post, the issue I see is that the DM wants a cause-and-effect world where actions have consequences, and the players clearly don't want that. They want to kill things and take their stuff. Both types of games can be a lot of fun, but cause-and-effect usually works better in a world with a tighter story, where players are motivated to stay in character to see what happens. Killing things and taking their stuff only works with a story if the DM is willing to come down hard and impose limitations -- ideally, without making the player look like a chump in the process.

To OP: I would avoid the second arbiter like the plague. That's dealing with it in-game. I'd go with what others have suggested. Keep it out of game, and ask people what they want. Tell them what kind of game you'd like to run, and what kind of game you're willing to run. If you and the players can't find a good middle ground, then play something else, or have someone else run the game. Everyone needs to have fun in a game, or something is being done wrong. I wouldn't want to see my careful story-centric game upended by somebody who wants to kill anyone who is rude to him, and I wouldn't want to hurt someone's feelings by running a pure "kill anything, no rules" game and having bad things happen offstage (as setup for the next big fight) without the heroes getting the chance to stop it.
 

Fenes said:
Well, in some cases, there's supposedly good kings and their men acting as bullies too.

Yes and that is a nice role playing challange. How do you handle it. Kill him, set up so the King sees how he is behaving, find out why he is behaving this way?

I would find a game boring if every NPC behaved exactly the same.

I played in a Kalamar game where my PC was a high ranking member of the Kalamar royalty I had been knighted. I was working with a group of good churches to find a plague that was causing people to die and come back as undead.

We went to Pekal which is at war with Kalamar. I had papers of neutrality from the churches to ask for permission to travel through Pekal.

The Prince's advisor a high ranking noble was who we saw first. He was out and out rude to my PC. The paladin in our group stepped between us at one point because the man had insulted my honor. He remined me of our mission.

When we got to see the Prince the Prince finally ordered the advisor to leave the room and then he explained that the advisor was grieving. His children along with other high ranking noble's children had been kidnapped by forces loyal to the Emperor of Kalamar. When Pekal did not capitulate to the Emperor demands the children were killed and there heads sent back to their families.

So there had been a role playing reason to explain this NPCs behavior to my high level powerful PC.

It is possible that there was a role playing reason for the arbitors behavior as well but the PCs never found it out because they killed him.

Right now in my game the clerics of St Cuthbert are showing rudenes to the Spellsinger of the party there is a reason why this is happening. They have found out that that this Spellsinger used to work for Tiamat and they don't trust that he has really changed sides.

As I have said before there should always be a role playing reason for the behavior of NPCs.
 

In some cases, the fun comes from growing powerful, and then change from being glorified thugs to actually change the world through politics.

@Elf Witch: I play Shadowrun as well, and the style is different. In D&D, I see the world as far more open for PCs to rise to the top. Getting treated like shadowrunner scum even after killing the ancient red dragon is tedious, and not really realistic for D&D.

The main problem I see is that trying to change playstyles through in game actions is not going to work. If you don't want your players to act like thugs, talk to the players.
 

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