DM Dilemma: Munchkins are getting out of hand... and I let it happen.

[Teataine]

0. I agree that they are playing (or seem to be playing) a hardcore Us vs. the DM kind of game. First clear up that up with them. 99,9% of gaming problems can be solved socially, with an out-of-game solution, setting the right expectations and getting everyone on the same page. If you don't want to run this game, then tell them you're not out to get them. They're not competing against you, because that would be silly, you can just drop a mountain on them and win every fight. You're there to create a shared world of adventures together or whatever.

Alternatively, if that's what you're all after, make sure that it's clear that you will try to challenge them as hard as possible, fairly and impartially. Bring your best game, screw the encounter building rules and make encounters that will really make them bite their nails. Don't PLAN fights. Just don't. You can't plan something that hinges on a lot of random dice rolling. Instead just build interesting and dynamic environments (with lots of obstacles, difficult terrain, hazards, moving bits, dangers that require skill checks) and make or pick monsters with cool and interesting abilities, and play them intelligently, especially humanoids. They aren't just static jack-in-the-box monsters waiting for the PCs to show up and then attack. They can trick and outsmart the characters.

1. Let me guess, you're running 3E/PF? In that case everything starts to break down after level 7 anyway. How long has been the campaign been going on/how long do you want it to keep going? Maybe consider wrapping things up slowly, push to a climatic ending in the next level or two, then start a new game.

2. CRs and encounter building don't work a lot of the time, they're not exact and balanced for "normal" parties, not charop builds by experienced players. Action economy is more important than HP/AC. Battle prep may be more important than actual combat. Use enemies that are intelligent/are able to spy/investigate/counter the PCs and prepare for their fights. If the PCs are kicking everything's ass, don't be afraid to use monsters with +2 CR compared to the party. Have your villains drink potions and cast buffs on them before fights. Use terrain to up the PCs movement and abilities. Just generally fight harder.

3. The XP for combat is a ed up system anyway. Just create three categories of XP rewards (easy, moderate, hard) and award that at the end based on how the fight went, no on what you actually spent on the encounter.

 

[magnusmalkus]

Bottom line: They're playing Step On Up. Hardcore Gamism. Players vs. DM. I Win D&D. That's the style of game they enjoy. They get their kicks from outsmarting your challenges. It's them vs. you, in their minds. Maybe your last campaign made them think this way, maybe their last DM did. Whatever. That's how they're thinking about it.

You, however, sound like you want to be playing something else. Some sort of mambsy-pambsy "Story DM" crap (Psst! I'm a "Story DM" too!).

That is your core issue right there. Everything else are symptoms of that issue.

This isn't a "problem" for you alone to solve, it's an issue you need to work out with your group and fins some kind of compromise.

Yes, you've pegged it quite well. That's the pulse of it.

I've talked to them and it was like a break-thru 'eureka' moment at therapy session.

They're quite willing to peel it back a bit and relax on the 'HA, I BEAT YOU!' perspective and roll with things in a more casual manner.


Thanks for the excellent contributions folks.

 

[magnusmalkus]

0. I agree that they are playing (or seem to be playing) a hardcore Us vs. the DM kind of game. ... They're not competing against you, because that would be silly, you can just drop a mountain on them and win every fight. You're there to create a shared world of adventures together or whatever.

Exactly.

2. CRs and encounter building don't work a lot of the time, they're not exact and balanced for "normal" parties, not charop builds by experienced players. Action economy is more important than HP/AC. Battle prep may be more important than actual combat. Use enemies that are intelligent/are able to spy/investigate/counter the PCs and prepare for their fights. If the PCs are kicking everything's ass, don't be afraid to use monsters with +2 CR compared to the party. Have your villains drink potions and cast buffs on them before fights. Use terrain to up the PCs movement and abilities. Just generally fight harder.

Yeah, this is where I need to tighten up. When it comes to mechanically building (N)PC's/Monsters, my Obsessive Compulsive Disorder kicks in and I wind up spending MUCH more time than is probably necessary on the task, and definitely more time than I have, (which is sadly quite less time than I WISH I had to devote to my favorite hobby). I've avoided the nitty-gritty details (the essence of min/maxing, IMO) and plotting pre-combat tactics because I'd be at it F O R E V E R. I don't find any joy in it. The research alone! ACK! Hours of time i'll never get back... Now that I say it, I do sound like a prime candidate for pre-published stuff... but I just so enjoy crafting the setting and story...

On top of all that, I'm just too damned fair. I just can't bring to bear upon the PC's something outside of the box for fear I would squish them. As mentioned, I could drop a mountain on them. Unfortunately, my sense of logic DEMANDS that anything I implement in-game NOT be contrived. I don't like playing god: inserting traps, enemies, or anything I wish, for the sake of covering my ass or applying additional pressure in an easy situation. Though, yes, I do know it's my right as a DM to do these things. Time to step up, I suppose. Flexibility means leaning INTO as well as leaning back.

And fudging rolls? I SUCK at lying. I don't even know what my bluff face would look like. My efforts to feign surprise at outcomes I've fudged so as to arrange a more appropriate outcome are transparent. It is for this reason that I need to feel everyone is 'playing with the same set of rules in the spirit of the game'. In that same spirit, knowing we're all working at the same 'level', I've **always** gone by the exact roll of the dice. In fact, I roll the dice publicly... I always have.

NOW that I think of it... THIS is probably what taught them to try and one-up me. They fear the DICE!

But how could such casual attention to detail on my own NPC's/Monsters result in such DEADLY enemies resulting in paranoia among my players? PFFT, maybe i'm wrong. I wont be so egotistical to think *I'm* solely responsible for their perception of reality. I'm sure it's a combination of things... their gaming style is an extension and reflection of their own inner workings... It's not all me. Yeah. I need to let it go.

3. The XP for combat is a ed up system anyway. Just create three categories of XP rewards (easy, moderate, hard) and award that at the end based on how the fight went, no on what you actually spent on the encounter.

That's some of the best advice I've ever read on XP rewarding. My campaign needs this.

Thanks!

 

[Sadras]

How do I deflate this situation? How can I honor player choice when building their PC's, while limiting their ability to dominate the game by creating min/maxed munchkins and bring the game back to a state where PC's are actually challenged without resorting to 'DM tricks' and custom-built, imposed ineffectivity upon their PC's min/maxed abilities?

If you are to keep the existing campaign, because you have not mentioned as a possible solution for a start over...there are a number of options for you to choose from

a) The Slow Death of Magic - run a world altering event where magic is systematically drained from the world to the point where is begins crippling the PCs power as magical items cease to function, arcane spells take longer to cast especially without material components, the divine energies become increasingly difficult to channel and magical beings such as golems and the like break down...etc
Provide a strong narrative why there is this drain on magic and how the PCs can help mitigate this world altering event, but from then on play a low magic campaign with changes to the rules due to the modified setting: such as actual cost for creating permanent magical items (i.e. 1 permanent hp loss), potions lose their effect within a week if not used as the drain still exists now permanently but perhaps at a slower pace, usually long lasting spells slowly dissipate eventually, perhaps extended exposure to magic corrupts ones body and therefore its safer to use ritual magic instead...etc Just use your imagination.

b) A Powerful Plague sweeps across the land affecting every living thing....its incurable, and the deities seem to keep quiet (Commune), scores of people and animals die, no one escape its from low to high born, plants become infected so it enters the food supply - the adventures for the PCs usually are their attempts to investigate the source of the Plague, deal with an increase in brigands, find & battle for cures (even temporary ones), consult far distant scholars, save themselves by trying to outrun it, sailing to new lands...etc only to find they they have become infected...they begin making saves each day, losing points from their physical abilities permanently....how and when they are saved is all on you.

c) Change the nature of the campaign - Scores of Dragons arrive in the land, terrorizing the countrysides - using evil humanoids as their slaves, resistances are put down swiftly and if not entire villages and their populaces are burned as punishment. The PCs will soon realise these are foes they cannot go up against and their aggressive actions only punish those they love and the innocents.
Instead of seeking combat - the adventures take on the other two pillars of D&D, as PCs seek to rally support, create an underground network, gather information of their attackers, hide, seek long forgotten lore in forgotten underground cities which speak of how the dragons were overthrown the last time they rose to power...
Weapons become banned as do spell-books and holy symbols unless you bear the Dragon-Marks marking you as the Dragons' servants. PCs must hide to survive in this changing world.
This is a great one, because PCs will soon realise that combat will just create more trouble for them as they are hunted down to be tortured and persecuted - they get no rest, no chance to heal up. Let them be tortured when they are captured just for them to know the NPCs mean business - its their fault for playing stupid - have them lose eyes, hands or even arms...

Hell use a combination of all three story types, or think of something else on those levels.

World altering narrative breaks munchkin PCs every time....it allows you to bend the rules in an interesting and dramatic way, inflicts permanent effects upon the PCs reflecting no one is safe, its the great equalizer.
They will start paying attention when everything they have known is turned on its head, nothing is certain not even their safety and the stakes are raised high. Then you can start having fun and trust me they will too

 

[magnusmalkus]

3e created a character creation game before the actual game that was probably more popular than the rest of the system, at least for some folks.

If they want you to optimize every creature they come against I feel for you. You need to be in it more than they are for that optimization path because then you need to do it several times prior to each session where they only do theirs once.

Heh, Sounds like you feel my pain. Yeah. I pointed that out, that I have MUCH MORE on my plate than they do. They understood. I'd burn out if I had to optimize everything over and over again.

This is why I've been trying so hard not to advance in level so quickly! I have to keep rebuilding everything i've already taken care of, or else, NOT build anything until it's right at the players doorstep! Personally, for the time I have to attend to pre-game maintenance (3 to 5 hrs a week might be good for some people, but it's not enough for me), I need more time than a weeks notice if I had to truly optimize all the encounters I expect they'll move through in an approaching session. But that's what I've been trying to do ... with some disastrous results. I wind up being so unfamiliar with them, a lot of their 'minutiae' gets lost in the shuffle (special qualities and defences that could possibly swing a battle). Better organization might help... BUT... i've only got a few hours a week to prepare! Restricting resource material might help me tighten up my time...

 

[Zelc]

Talk to your players and come to a consensus on what type of game you'd like to play as a group. I'd count my self as an optimizer. I don't optimize because I think of the game as "Characters vs. DM" like some people suggested. I like to play optimized characters because I want my character to be powerful and/or reliable and because tinkering with and creating powerful characters is part of the fun. Missing 50% of the time is not awesome. It's fun to use one ability which makes a second ability more powerful, but I can't rely on that if the first ability only works 50% of the time.

Talk to your players and say you're having a tough time challenging them and the game is losing its fun for you. Share this with them and see if you can agree on a tier of character power to play at that would be fun for everyone. Challenge them to optimize within a tier -- make the best character of that power tier, but don't exceed it (this isn't just using those classes; a Sorcerer is tier 2 but an evocation Sorcerer is probably tier 4, for instance). They'll probably overshoot by a bit anyway, but now you guys have an agreement on what type of game you want to play together.

If they don't agree to do this, then find a more mature gaming group . Well, if you don't want to do that, subtract 2 or 3 from all of the CRs in the book. Or throw an optimized character back at them.

I completely disagree with some of what's been suggested. Doing this:

World altering narrative breaks munchkin PCs every time....it allows you to bend the rules in an interesting and dramatic way, inflicts permanent effects upon the PCs reflecting no one is safe, its the great equalizer.

or this:

Most easiest solution, get a DM screen and roll saving throws and monster attack rolls behind the screen, and cheat. or as Gary Gygax called it "Be in control of your game" as all DM's have a right to do.

is IMO the worst things you can do. These will bring the game into a "Characters vs. DM" mindset and would definitely get me to rage-quit. The first is equivalent to saying "rock falls everyone dies". I'm sorry, building and playing effective characters is what's fun for me, and now you're taking that away without a discussion? The second will be found out and your players won't trust you again.

 

[Quickleaf]

Yes, you've pegged it quite well. That's the pulse of it.

I've talked to them and it was like a break-thru 'eureka' moment at therapy session.

They're quite willing to peel it back a bit and relax on the 'HA, I BEAT YOU!' perspective and roll with things in a more casual manner.

Thanks for the excellent contributions folks.

Glad to hear your chat turned out well!

Probably [MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION]'s advice to think laterally about the issue rather than fight fire with fire is the better approach in the longer term. However, for those moments when you all do decide to engage in a bit of rampant Gamism...

...I'm not too familiar with PC power levels in 3e, but isn't 8th level an appropriate time to introduce Tucker's Kobolds?

On top of all that, I'm just too damned fair. I just can't bring to bear upon the PC's something outside of the box for fear I would squish them. As mentioned, I could drop a mountain on them. Unfortunately, my sense of logic DEMANDS that anything I implement in-game NOT be contrived. I don't like playing god: inserting traps, enemies, or anything I wish, for the sake of covering my ass or applying additional pressure in an easy situation. Though, yes, I do know it's my right as a DM to do these things. Time to step up, I suppose. Flexibility means leaning INTO as well as leaning back.

Maybe one of the issues you're facing is how to be a time-harried DM and where you should invest your limited prep time to maximum effect?

While there are some universal tips I am sure you've heard before, I would also point out that this varies from DM to DM based on our strengths and weaknesses. For example, I know other DMs who need list of NPC names. Not me...Thandriel's and Evaster's just seem to spring from my brain complete with personality quirks. Hell, I've even improvised a puzzle or two on the fly. But ask me to give out meaningful and level appropriate treasure on the fly and I begin mewling like a baby - I just can't do it. And ask me to run a skill challenge on the fly (we play 4e), and I'll probably whip together something passable, but it would be 10 times better if I prepped.

And this can change from game session to game session too.

I am going on a limb, and guessing that you like to invest time in the story and setting and NPCs. And that these are also the area that is easiest for you to improvise if you need to. Instead, however, to maximize your prep time you should probably be spending most if not all of it designing challenges (or stealing then of the Internet).

 

[DMZ2112]

These will bring the game into a "Characters vs. DM" mindset and would definitely get me to rage-quit. The first is equivalent to saying "rock falls everyone dies". I'm sorry, building and playing effective characters is what's fun for me, and now you're taking that away without a discussion? The second will be found out and your players won't trust you again.

Boo-freakin-hoo. Here, you can dry your tears on your dead character's sheet.

There's no such thing as a game of D&D that isn't "player vs. dungeon master" -- it's the whole point. In every game of D&D ever played, the players control the PCs and the dungeon master controls the monsters, traps, and even the ambient environment. The only variable is how antagonistic that relationship is.

Another thing that I find incredible: character optimizers complaining about dungeon master advantage. Their entire premise is built around the use of disparate rules that were never playtested together to create "legal" characters that can't be reliably challenged by the RAW. They are the greatest proponents of the "player vs. dungeon master" style who draw breath -- what they object to is not the antagonism but the fact that they might be the antagonized rather than the antagonizer.

 

[jasper]

Talk to them. Ask for a reset of the number of books allowed. If they say No, you don't have to dm for them.

 

[Obryn]

Life is too short to run games that you are not enjoying. My advice would be an open and honest discussion with your players. A campaign that not fun for the GM will become not fun for the players eventually. I don't find campaigns that become little more than an arms race slap fight to be enjoyable either so I stopped running them.

Nailed it. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

Sit down, talk like grown ups. (Looks like you did! Awesome!)

If it doesn't work out, consider a different system - either different editions of D&D, or, better, another system altogether like Savage Worlds. If you're not having fun, find something fun.