DM Encounter Advice

[Prophet2b]

I'm curious (although I suspect the answer is yes): do you also put encounters in the game that are extremely easy and a cakewalk, to remind the PCs that they're more powerful than many people?

Oh yeah, there have probably been way more fights like that than ones that they had to run away from. Especially in the campaign before this one.

Of course, last session they ran from some bandits because they were way outnumbered - though despite that, I was quite certain they could have beat the bandits (a lot of them were low level commoners and experts - nothing too special, would have gone down in one hit). It was intended to be a quick, semi-challenging (though nothing special) fight, and the bandits were just supposed to look impressive, but not really be impressive.

They ran from that one, which surprised the heck out of me. So I didn't think cave teaming with monsters would be an issue... But, I realize now I was thinking all wrong about that, too. My thought was, "Well, they had their chance to fight and didn't take it. That was a manageable encounter, now here's an unmanageable one." Meanwhile, they're thinking, "Whew, we avoided one encounter that would've turned out badly. The next one, though, will probably be alright to attack. He wouldn't throw two things in a row at us that are beyond our ability."

Oops...

 

[Prophet2b]

I think the entire party probably should have died... and it was really the DM being lenient (and us forgetting some rules) that spared us from that- it just seemed at the outset to be a very straightforward adventure

Yeah, once again, I apologize to you guys.

But, come on, straightforward? Don't you know me better than that by now? Just remember the discussion before the session on how to introduce your character. I can't really remember the last time I threw out a plot hook that wasn't at least slightly complicated in some fashion... heh.

And I wasn't being that lenient. I mean, after I drove you back once (or was it twice?) with the hordes of monsters, two people almost died, and you were all low on spells and hitpoints, I didn't expect you guys to charge further into the cave, again. That time I had really planned on killing you - until I realized that, if possible, they'd just try to capture you and turn you into aberrations. That wasn't really leniency. I would have described in quite a lot of detail what happened to your characters.

Thankfully, you guys still had the beguiler. And she did get to do her job in the end! And no one was aberified.

 

[Rel]

I've had this problem and I think of it as an "advertising" problem. The players look at the encounter and it seems to be a fairly typical "cave with stuff in it" that they need to kill. And they are motivated to do so with good plot hooks (good job on that part by the way). So they start attacking the Dolgrims who are totally CR appropriate for them and then get lured into the slippery slope of the rest of the "dungeon" which has them fighting a nearly endless supply of increasingly difficult critters. This is not what was advertised.

If you want to advertise an encounter that can't be overcome by raw violence then you need to show them up front that that's going to be nearly impossible. Don't have the front door guarded by weenie creatures. Bring out the Ogres and badasses right away. Make the PC's see that running away and looking for another way inside is going to be a better answer.

HOWEVER, this is going to work better with some groups than with others. As with most GMing, it's a matter of "know your players". I'm extremely big on the Player Types put forward by Robin Laws (recommended reading: The first part of the DMGII or Robin Laws' Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering). If your group is composed of a Buttkickers and Powergamers, they are going to want to bash in the door and kill some bad guys. It's just what's fun for them. If you've got some Tactician's in the group then they will probably see that the front door isn't happening and look for alternative routes. Your Storyteller and Method Actor types could go either way depending on how you arrange your plot hooks.

 

[Vorput]

I'm with Piratecat and Shilsen- we need more encounters we can win without breaking a sweat.

Preferably evil 1st level commoners with big sacks of gold.

Vorp

 

[jdrakeh]

This is precisely what I referred to above. I find it contradictory that on one hand you say that if it makes sense for a certain creature to be in a certain place then CR be damned, but then also give a resounding "No" to the idea of encounters that are a cakewalk for the PCs. Wouldn't it make sense in some places to have people who are significantly weaker than the PCs (esp. once the PCs have a few levels under their belts)? In that case, if the PCs choose to fight them, wouldn't those fights be a cakewalk?

I seem to have misunderstood your previous remark. Yes, there are people less powerful than the PCs in the world. I don't specifically design encounters that way, though (much as I don't set up encounters specifically to kill PCs). If 5th Level PCs pick a fight with potato farmers, they'll win it. Similarly, as I mention above, there are things in the world that can kill the PCs dead in short order. And if the same PCs pick a fight with the 20th Level Necromancer, he'll cook their goose. So, those posibilities exist in my games, though I don't steer the PCs toward either by design.

 

[shilsen]

I seem to have misunderstood your previous remark. Yes, there are people less powerful than the PCs in the world. I don't specifically design encounters that way, though (much as I don't set up encounters specifically to kill PCs). If 5th Level PCs pick a fight with potato farmers, they'll win it. Similarly, as I mention above, there are things in the world that can kill the PCs dead in short order. And if the same PCs pick a fight with the 20th Level Necromancer, he'll cook their goose. So, those posibilities exist in my games, though I don't steer the PCs toward either by design.

Ah! In that case, we're on the same page. Game on!

 

[roguerouge]

Ah... I'm with the player on this one. You have to make sure that the beguiler's abilities fit the beguilee. ESPECIALLY when it's the Beguiler's first turn in the spot light. Make the big bad mad cultist humans who want a world of abominations....

 

[Rel]

I seem to have misunderstood your previous remark. Yes, there are people less powerful than the PCs in the world. I don't specifically design encounters that way, though (much as I don't set up encounters specifically to kill PCs). If 5th Level PCs pick a fight with potato farmers, they'll win it.

But see sometimes what I like to do is have one of the potato farmers go up to the skinny Rogue who had just asked the barmaid, "Do you know anybody who could guide us to the Ogre Lair in the hills nearby?" and say to him, "I saw you talking to my woman. You'd best stay clear of her, Outlander, or you'll be getting more of THIS." And then the farmer punches the Rogue in the stomach. Or he would have if the Rogue's AC wasn't 26.

Then a quick and dirty brawl unfolds where all the farmers go down in one punch. Even the Wizard is knocking guys on their butts. Afterwards the PC's harken back to their first barroom brawl where the entire party was thrown out into the street by a pair of 3rd level Expert Bouncers. And they say, "We've come a LONG way!...Now about those Ogres..."

This also sets up the scene later when the party returns victorious from the Ogre Lair (except not the Wizard who failed a Concentration check while within reach of a Greatclub and got critted) and the potato farmer walks up to the Rogue and says, "I misjudged you, Outlander. You have my thanks." And extends his hand in friendship.

Later that night the Rogue sleeps with the barmaid of course.

 

[shilsen]

But see sometimes what I like to do is have one of the potato farmers go up to the skinny Rogue who had just asked the barmaid, "Do you know anybody who could guide us to the Ogre Lair in the hills nearby?" and say to him, "I saw you talking to my woman. You'd best stay clear of her, Outlander, or you'll be getting more of THIS." And then the farmer punches the Rogue in the stomach. Or he would have if the Rogue's AC wasn't 26.

Then a quick and dirty brawl unfolds where all the farmers go down in one punch. Even the Wizard is knocking guys on their butts. Afterwards the PC's harken back to their first barroom brawl where the entire party was thrown out into the street by a pair of 3rd level Expert Bouncers. And they say, "We've come a LONG way!...Now about those Ogres..."

This also sets up the scene later when the party returns victorious from the Ogre Lair (except not the Wizard who failed a Concentration check while within reach of a Greatclub and got critted) and the potato farmer walks up to the Rogue and says, "I misjudged you, Outlander. You have my thanks." And extends his hand in friendship.

Later that night the Rogue sleeps with the barmaid of course.

That ... is ... just ... fricking ... cool!

I 've never done the potato farmer thing but I've had things like a bunch of 2nd lvl rogues try to mug a PC with levels in the double digits. Then his friends joined him and a couple of PCs took turns holding off four muggers with one hand while rolling a cigarette with the other and offering odds to their companions on how many hits the enemy could land if they gave them four shots each. Then they discussed who got the least fun in the last fight and let him beat up the enemy single-handed, hung them from a wall via a Web spell (a la Spiderman) with a magical light on it, and left them for the guards.

Heck, you can even do things like this when fights don't occur. The PCs in my current Eberron game once air walked their magical steeds over an ambush by gnolls which was designed just for them to strut their stuff. So I did a break for 5 minutes while I described what the gnolls thought of the sight, how they formed a cult based on the Four Riders of the Apocalypse, and then spread it through the ranks of gnollkind down the years. And put in a little bit from the gnolls' viewpoints in the Story Hour. The PCs didn't roll a die, but the players laughed a lot and they all felt really cool and powerful.

 

[RobJN]

I'm curious (although I suspect the answer is yes): do you also put encounters in the game that are extremely easy and a cakewalk, to remind the PCs that they're more powerful than many people?

Isn't that what commoners are for, though....?