D&D (2024) DMG 2024: Is The Sandbox Campaign Dead?

[Reynard]

"Player authored quests" are not typical of sandbox play as I know and understand it. In bog standard sandbox play, the GM populates the sandbox, and players make choices within it. The players don't author quests - that would be the player populating their own sandbox. Player authored quests are that's more a "neotrad" playstyle element, giving more narrative control to players.

Players choose what they do in a sandbox.

Why are you trying to move the goalposts? ETA: Specifically regarding bringing in the trad vs neotrad debate. That would just be a distraction.

 

[Remathilis]

Players choose what they do in a sandbox.

Why are you trying to move the goalposts?

He's not. He's responding to the notion of who creates the plot hooks. Lots of sandbox DMs begin with a sandwich board of plot hooks for the PCs to follow (stop a cult, investigate the old ruins, fight the bandits, etc) and the PCs investigate which ones interest them. You're discussing the PCs creating the hooks (fight the pirates that held me as a slave, find the lost family heirloom, become king) and the DM reacts to them by complicating their plans. While I can say I was never a connoisseur of sandboxes, I will say most of the ones I'd heard about were the former style.

 

[Reynard]

He's not. He's responding to the notion of who creates the plot hooks. Lots of sandbox DMs begin with a sandwich board of plot hooks for the PCs to follow (stop a cult, investigate the old ruins, fight the bandits, etc) and the PCs investigate which ones interest them. You're discussing the PCs creating the hooks (fight the pirates that held me as a slave, find the lost family heirloom, become king) and the DM reacts to them by complicating their plans. While I can say I was never a connoisseur of sandboxes, I will say most of the ones I'd heard about were the former style.

I think you are confusing my posts with someone else's. I have not defined it that way. I think both are viable, as long as player agency and the social contract are both maintained.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You're discussing the PCs creating the hooks (fight the pirates that held me as a slave, find the lost family heirloom, become king) and the DM reacts to them by complicating their plans

The concept of the personal quest is a well known one, that features in Critical Role and many CRPGs. But it doesn’t have to be limited to a sandbox game. DM and player can weave a personal quest into an adventure path just as easily.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I genuinely believe if you enjoy what you are playing you are meeting “the goal.” Period.

However, I think it is perfectly clear that the authors of the recent editions favor the telling of stories that are not derived from emergent game play.

I have been looking at some OSR games of late and the approach is starkly different. In one they recommend a name and 1-2 sentence background and a distinguishing characteristic. The game is lethal and you may not write the story you envisioned.

I don’t think the authors of the edition would say emergent play is “wrong.” But if they are coaching a new dm and players I do think their push is for “telling your story” and that refers to the character’s arc or whatever.

It’s hr sandbox could help or hinder that I suppose; but the tenor of the new editions is very much one of assumed control over the story.

I have loved 5e; it is possible to play a sandbox if you understand them and design them. The same holds for 2024; however unless it is handed down from older players, it will simply become less common.

Feature? Bug? Your choice. I have recently concluded that to scratch all of D&D itches, I will probably need to both play 5e and perhaps a retroclone.

As always the game is what you make of it. If people don’t know the range of options they will mostly choose what gets pages in the DMG.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

it will simply become less common.

Why should it? Previous editions haven’t told people to play that way, yet they still do it.

 

[Oofta]

Isn't that like Skyrim and the other Elder Scrolls games?

Probably something broader than is accepted here?
I was going by the wiki definition...

A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective, and are sometimes referred to as non-games or software toys. More often, sandbox games result from these creative elements being incorporated into other genres and allowing for emergent gameplay.

Something like GTA San Andreas would be a good example, I guess.

Even video games that let you pursue your goals in any order or have a world where you can go anywhere at any time is still an open world game if it has predefined quests and goals. So Skyrim, or more recent games like the Horizon or Far Cry series are open world games because even though you can go anywhere you want, if you want to complete the game there are certain things you have to do. Games like Minecraft, Microsoft Flight Simulator or The Sims are sandbox games because there is no storyline you have to follow.

But like I said, the definition of sandbox is really fuzzy. A lot of games have parts of the game that could be considered sandbox because you can spend hours crafting daggers to up your skill level if you want. But eventually you are going to hit linear parts of the story where you have specific quests and challenges, even if you can approach them in multiple ways and frequently in any order. Other games, like many racing sims, have a core story at first but once that's done just let you drive in races and compete against AI or online opponents.

 

[Remathilis]

The concept of the personal quest is a well known one, that features in Critical Role and many CRPGs. But it doesn’t have to be limited to a sandbox game. DM and player can weave a personal quest into an adventure path just as easily.

Oh for sure. I do it all the time. My point was traditional sandboxes start with the DM giving all the hooks and the PCs picking what to follow vs PCs telling the DM what they want to do and the campaign revolves around that.

 

[Reynard]

Even video games that let you pursue your goals in any order or have a world where you can go anywhere at any time is still an open world game if it has predefined quests and goals. So Skyrim, or more recent games like the Horizon or Far Cry series are open world games because even though you can go anywhere you want, if you want to complete the game there are certain things you have to do. Games like Minecraft, Microsoft Flight Simulator or The Sims are sandbox games because there is no storyline you have to follow.

But like I said, the definition of sandbox is really fuzzy. A lot of games have parts of the game that could be considered sandbox because you can spend hours crafting daggers to up your skill level if you want. But eventually you are going to hit linear parts of the story where you have specific quests and challenges, even if you can approach them in multiple ways and frequently in any order. Other games, like many racing sims, have a core story at first but once that's done just let you drive in races and compete against AI or online opponents.

I don't think the definitions of "sandbox" between video games and TTRPGs are equivalent and that line of discussion is probably doomed to a circular argument. If we are going to invoke CRPGs, I would say a TTRPG sandbox looks more like an open world game on the surface, but player agency and the presence of the GM make it a sandbox in the TTRPG sense. If you curtail that player agency (like Rime does) then you just end up with a tabletop crpg.

 

[Remathilis]

Even video games that let you pursue your goals in any order or have a world where you can go anywhere at any time is still an open world game if it has predefined quests and goals. So Skyrim, or more recent games like the Horizon or Far Cry series are open world games because even though you can go anywhere you want, if you want to complete the game there are certain things you have to do. Games like Minecraft, Microsoft Flight Simulator or The Sims are sandbox games because there is no storyline you have to follow.

But like I said, the definition of sandbox is really fuzzy. A lot of games have parts of the game that could be considered sandbox because you can spend hours crafting daggers to up your skill level if you want. But eventually you are going to hit linear parts of the story where you have specific quests and challenges, even if you can approach them in multiple ways and frequently in any order. Other games, like many racing sims, have a core story at first but once that's done just let you drive in races and compete against AI or online opponents.

I wonder how MMO RPGs fit into that. Most have a storyline element to it, but you aren't required to do it. For example, Elder Scrolls Online has story quests that explain the main story and all subsequent events that are quite linear, but you can ignore them and do many other types of activities (pvp, raid groups, card game, fashion, crime, housing, side quests, dungeons, etc). I've had characters grind to endgame quickly and never touch a story quest line.