D&D (2024) DMG 2024: Is The Sandbox Campaign Dead?

[Micah Sweet]

World-building that never sees play though has far greater diminishing returns on time though.

Not sure what that means. If you don't enjoy worldbuilding you should either buy a pre-made sandbox setting or avoid the playstyle, because the players are not going to experience the entire sandbox, and you have to be ok with that.

 

[Older Beholder]

Even video games that let you pursue your goals in any order or have a world where you can go anywhere at any time is still an open world game if it has predefined quests and goals. So Skyrim, or more recent games like the Horizon or Far Cry series are open world games because even though you can go anywhere you want, if you want to complete the game there are certain things you have to do. Games like Minecraft, Microsoft Flight Simulator or The Sims are sandbox games because there is no storyline you have to follow.

But like I said, the definition of sandbox is really fuzzy. A lot of games have parts of the game that could be considered sandbox because you can spend hours crafting daggers to up your skill level if you want. But eventually you are going to hit linear parts of the story where you have specific quests and challenges, even if you can approach them in multiple ways and frequently in any order. Other games, like many racing sims, have a core story at first but once that's done just let you drive in races and compete against AI or online opponents.

Yeah, something like Skyrim is more open world. But it has a massive sandbox element. I spent way more time playing the game after I finished the story. My favourite memories were spending weeks as a vampire getting chased out of towns, sneaking around, etc…

 

[mamba]

It would be impossible to make a profit on the core rules alone.

on the contrary, the biggest profit is on the core rules, that is why in 3e they outsourced adventures to 3pp via the OGL, they were not all that interested in making them as there was little money in it

 

[Remathilis]

Not sure what that means. If you don't enjoy worldbuilding you should either buy a pre-made sandbox setting or avoid the playstyle, because the players are not going to experience the entire sandbox, and you have to be ok with that.

I'm saying there is a thing as too much world building. For example, you will want the immediate area the PCs are going to be in given some significant detail, but you don't have to fill in beyond that area except for light detail until it becomes relevant. (The old empire to the North, the haunted swamplands to the West, etc).

Some people think they need all the answers ahead of time for everything the PCs could potentially do. Firstly, that's impossible and secondly, it's a waste of time to stock dungeons the PCs aren't going to explore or detail the politics of empires they are never going to interact with.

Now, if you enjoy that, more power to you. But not everyone likes world-building for purely its own sake, and in a world where time is prioritized, id rather build as needed rather than have hundreds of hours of work spent on things that will never get used.

And there are levels of world building between "detail everything" and "use a published setting".

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm saying there is a thing as too much world building. For example, you will want the immediate area the PCs are going to be in given some significant detail, but you don't have to fill in beyond that area except for light detail until it becomes relevant. (The old empire to the North, the haunted swamplands to the West, etc).

Some people think they need all the answers ahead of time for everything the PCs could potentially do. Firstly, that's impossible and secondly, it's a waste of time to stock dungeons the PCs aren't going to explore or detail the politics of empires they are never going to interact with.

Now, if you enjoy that, more power to you. But not everyone likes world-building for purely its own sake, and in a world where time is prioritized, id rather build as needed rather than have hundreds of hours of work spent on things that will never get used.

And there are levels of world building between "detail everything" and "use a published setting".

Agreed. What I usually do is place a number of lightly detailed points of interest, and flesh out the ones the PCs move toward. This is why I prefer a good stopping place at the end of a session, where the players can tell me their intentions and I have until the next session to get that location ready for prime time. Obviously at the beginning you need a few locales fully ready to go, but after that you detail as you go along.

 

[Reynard]

Sarcasm my friend. Sorry that didn't come across.

Oops. Sorry. After I wrote that I wondered if maybe you were responding to someone who has me blocked.

 

[Reynard]

Not sure what that means. If you don't enjoy worldbuilding you should either buy a pre-made sandbox setting or avoid the playstyle, because the players are not going to experience the entire sandbox, and you have to be ok with that.

I'm saying there is a thing as too much world building. For example, you will want the immediate area the PCs are going to be in given some significant detail, but you don't have to fill in beyond that area except for light detail until it becomes relevant. (The old empire to the North, the haunted swamplands to the West, etc).

Some people think they need all the answers ahead of time for everything the PCs could potentially do. Firstly, that's impossible and secondly, it's a waste of time to stock dungeons the PCs aren't going to explore or detail the politics of empires they are never going to interact with.

Now, if you enjoy that, more power to you. But not everyone likes world-building for purely its own sake, and in a world where time is prioritized, id rather build as needed rather than have hundreds of hours of work spent on things that will never get used.

And there are levels of world building between "detail everything" and "use a published setting".

"Too much worldbuilding" is when you spend time you should have been prepping for the session -- whatever that means for your style of GMing -- worldbuilding instead of doing that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Oops. Sorry. After I wrote that I wondered if maybe you were responding to someone who has me blocked.

I expect I run into that issue far more often than you do, unfortunately. Apparently I have quite a list.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You don't think WotC makes a profit on the core books?

No. Not enough to pay wages, keep the lights turned on, and give a return to investors. Not even close. They can’t release a new PHB every year.

 

[Belen]

This.

The DMG has not really taught people how to sandbox in the past. Why is not doing it now a major issue?

There used to be a lot more across the older editions to support this as regular play such a hirelings and level titles. I think that assisted in getting players to think in terms of what they can do outside of their character alone.

This changed with 3e and has continued to slide.

I find it very rare to have players who do not just wait for me to give them something to do.

Heck, I added hooks in my current campaign that tied into each characters backstory and they just ignore it to focus on adventure even when I say, you have time to go do x.

Players just do not seem to want to investigate or become a part of the world these days.