DMs against the Magical Wal-Mart

[Altalazar]

If it's a seller's market, how can you possibly justify your traders buying at 10%? Why would the PCs ever deal with these shysters? If it's a lot of trouble to find the guys, and then they screw you over, why not just do the deal personally with the intended buyer?

And if you tell me something odd like "only the magic shops know the buyers", then what stops the PCs from advertising? After all, their competition doesn't.



Not allowing what? Trade of magic? Yeah... that makes sense in anything other than an ultra-low magic setting



Cue TPK/dead NPC.

Great if you're looking to hang a campaign on this hat, terrible if you're not.

Here's the reason that magic item 'shops' (or markets or whatever) exist.

1) It's bloody boring to everyone in the party bar one person to have to roleplay it out every time you want to hock off a bit of minor magic.

2) Magic items that your players don't use are basically dead air.

3) Most campaigns don't support players buying land and operating kingdoms, which is what they'll do if they can only sell magic items and never buy them.

4) The game is about fun, not economics.

I agree basically with everything you have here.

If there is a demand for magic items and if there are adventurers who find items they don't want, there will be a supply. Supply and demand means there will be a market. And it won't be one where one side always sells at 10% and has to buy at 200%. That just doesn't make any economic sense. Profit margins are NEVER that high on anything. Hell, the margins for most businesses are less than 3%. Of course, there is overhead, etc. But not to the tune that the 10%/200% poster would seem to indicate.

Is a "used" magical sword worth any less than a new one? Actually, no. They are worth basically the same, assuming decent condition. So the difference in price between buying and selling should not be that much. Even the standard 50%/100% is probably too wide by a lot.

Now this does NOT mean that every item searched for will be found - it simply means on the off chance you DO find what you want to buy, the prices will not change that much between buyer and seller.

 

[jessemock]

i agree the DM needs to be inventive. i also agree about the distribution of items. did you even read the rest of my post you snipped?

Yes; I did. Your emphasis was on players; I disagree with that.

also you need to figure out the quoting tags. i didn't say the second part you quoted.

Nor does your name appear in that quote. I realise that there's an implication that following quotes all come from the same poster, but it's only an implication. In fact, I'm implying it right now--but, then, the previous quote has no name at all. Everything works out.

 

[Driddle]

There should be much discussion before the campaign even begins about how mages (and priests) are treated in the world. If nearly *anyone* can learn magic with a bit of effort and mentors are easy to find, then, yeah, you're going to have Kwik-E Magic Marts in every town. I prefer a more subtle approach:

Just a few major mage colleges across the continent where most of the learning and casting takes place (especially high-level magic). And if a mage decides to wander out into the world on his own, usually the most experienced or savvy among them will be drafted/hired by the local royalty while only the very rare low-level hedge-witch or alchemist will set up a private shop. (Licensing requests must be approved by the closest college's council of management; that's why only innocuous, wise and/or retired dabblers will be allowed their own stores, and why the kingdom maintains good diplomatic relations with the magickers.) ... What that means for PC access is that they can't just walk into a building and lay down X gold pieces for a +3 sword. Most magic items are privately owned and not advertised for sale. Only the simplest scrolls and potions will be available, and even then you've got to imagine what the townsfolk could normally afford to buy -- sickness medicines, "love" potions, tool sharpenings, lost item scries, etc. If you want to sell a magic sword, you're going to have to find a buyer for it yourself, probably via the richest local merchant, the ruling royalty, or the wizard's college.

(shrug) I've always appreciated old-style medieval settings with fewer fantastic trappings. There's nothing worse than taking magic for granted.

 

[Orius]

In my campaign, low-powered magic items (such as +1 weapons and armors, potions, scrolls, minor wonderous items, etc) can usually be purchased in large cities.

For more powerful magic items, the PCs either have to find them, craft them, or hire a powerful wizard to craft the item for them.

I do pretty much the same thing. PCs can usually find minor items, potions, +1 or maybe +2 weapons/armor in a large enough community. I have a system to randomly determine what's available. So even if they want a +1 longsword, there's a possibility one might not be available. After all, there are nobles, wealthy merchants, and even NPCs with PC class levels that will theoretically scarf up items too.
The more powerful stuff can't be bought like going to down to the greengrocer and buying veggies. After all, the NPCs making the items have to spend both gold and XPs to make items, and the as the costs increase, it's not as likely an NPC will sacrifice personal wealth and power just to make an item to sell. Remember, XP costs originally were supposed to something akin to Sauron putting his might and power into the One Ring, that sort of thing. How many NPCs are going to spend that much effort just to make a buck? It's more likely that the NPCs would make the item for either their own use, or for a very specific reason that's important to them. Also, think of where the NPCs are going to be getting the XPs to craft these items. If they're spending time to overcome challenges commensurate with their level to gain the XPs to make magic items, are they going to really have the time to crank out those items on an assembly line? I don't think so.

 

[VictorSim]

Assuming that your world uses the Manual of the Planes, Epic Handbook and that mercanes exist (ie. standard D&D world) then logically PCs should be able to buy whatever magic items they want in any town that possesses a 7th level wizard or 7th level cleric to a god of magic. If the players cannot easily buy magic items then they should setup magic shops themselves and become rich using the following strategy:

Using a Lesser Planar Binding or Lesser Planar Ally spell the shopkeeper summons up a Mercane and tells the mercane what magic item the buyer is looking for. The mercane agrees to buy the item in the planar metropolis of Union or from one of his other sources. The entire mercane race is dedicated to the buying and selling of magic items on an interplanar level and are highly organized so it should rarely take longer then a day to procure any standard item under the gp limit of a Planar Metropolis. If the item is non-standard then procurement will take longer as the item is specially made. The merchant mage/cleric summons up the mercane the next day and the transaction is made for the purchase of the item.

This system has several advantages for everyone concerned. The buyer gets to buy nearly anything they want from one convenient location. The merchant doesn't have to store a bunch of high value magic items on his premises which are guaranteed to attract thieves and doesn't have to invest a lot of capital into inventory. The Mercanes get a ready market for their wares and have local merchants acting as value added resellers.

Furthermore this scenario explains why magic items have the same cost across the various worlds and why there is a list of standard DMG items. The DMG items are those that the mercanes keep in stock and the prices are those fixed based upon their home world economics.

The cost of the magic items should be as per the DMG with the following additional fees: 600 gp in trade for one days work by the Mercane (using gate spell description for the per diem rate for an outsider's services), 560 gp for a 7th level caster to cast two lesser planar ally/binding spells (one to place the order and one for delivery).

Note: the party should be able to trim these costs by placing bulk orders which would only require these fees to be paid once for the entire order instead of individually for each item.

Furthermore if the party has PCs of 7th level or higher with the appropriate spells they should be able to cast the summoning spells themselves bypassing that cost and will no longer have to return to towns to re-equip as they can simply summon up their personal mercane merchant and deal with him directly while in the dungeon.

This is the logical extrapolation of the economics of magic items in the D&D universe in my campaign based upon the rules as written.

Victor Sim

 

[Grompi]

Gold!

More expensive, and permanent (or many-charge) items are a bit too much of a luxury/rarity to be put up on shelves that way. Regardless of the fact that it is more convenient to produce these items in 3e, they still are custom-build items and not mass produced, so a wal-mart situation is ridiculous. Think of them more like paintings or the like.

As a first-time acquaintance of mine on these forums once said, “This is astute.” The idea that magic items are commodities, more than mere products is a great place to start when designing a system of governance for their distribution and acquisition by PCs. However, this seems to hint at a lower-than-average power campaign world, because…

If it's a typical D&D "high fantasy" world, like Forgotten Realms, then I have no problem with magic items being sold in stores. With all those mid- to high-level adventurers running around, looking to exchange all that magic loot they plundered from dungeons and what not; and with all those dwarves, alchemists, and wizards looking to profit from the many magic items they create; then why wouldn't there be an open market for magic items? Especially in big, cosmopolitan cities such as Waterdeep.

Azlan isn’t wrong here. In a society where magicians are common, magic items will be more common as well. Aas many have pointed out, the rules have built in control…

There was also a rule that established the maximum amount of ready cash that a town/city would have. If the party decided to sell a potent item there may be nobody that can afford it. They couldn't just bring in a bunch of gems and cash out their value. They also couldn't bring in a bunch of copper or silver to a city and cash it out for gold because there was a maximum amount of coin that the town has for such transactions. You can't imagine a small hamlet to be able to turn 1000 gp into 10 pp. The town would be lucky to have a single platinum piece at all.

There are a few problems with even this model, though….

Buying on commission is a good option, as others have stated. Individuals may have a supply of common potions or scrolls on hand for their own use but might be willing to part with them on a case-by-case basis.

Great, but one question that arises from even this simple assumption is: Why would a wizard, who knows his rivals can gain actual spell knowledge from scrolls, sell anything but the most common spells? Some magicians would be loath to carry potent scrolls on themselves when traveling for fear of such an item falling into enemy hands. Even scrolls can be very powerful. It could be that….

…it [is] assumed that when an Player buys (marks the gold off his sheet, and writes down the item) the above equipment, the PC goes to the relevant business or craftsman or guild or broker? So why is it thought that when purchasing a magic item, there has to be a magic item store?

This is a great solution if the world is such that players understand this is how things actually occur, and it makes sense within the framework of a character’s reputation and ally structure.

The latter question, however, is easily answered by the (sorry) fact that most established/published campaign worlds have magic shops. At least the mainstream ones do. This is probably just to make things easy on the DM and players “outside of the dungeon”. It’s assumed (probably rightfully) that most groups don’t want to spend a lot of time “shopping” in-game.

It could be worse, though….

In a "real" medieval/feudal world, there wouldn't be weapon shops either. Weapons were made by smith who worked for their lord, or made specifically for the army. There was no "free market" of swords.

But, as others have said, this largely depends on the culture in question.

I think the real problem is not whether magic items are for sale or not, but the whole idea that anyone would actually have enough raw cash to purchase some of these things. There’s simply too much money in typical D&D treasure and campaign worlds.

VictorSims’ idea of summoning mercane merchants is a great structure within the core D&D cosmology, but many here are eschewing that cosmology it seems. Some (including me in this post) suggest this is for ease of play and the lack of “fun” in item acquisition (that is, roleplaying shopping). This is an unfortunate example of great opportunities missed.

The game is about fun, not economics.

Economics, like any other part of the game, can be fun if treated thoughtfully and reasonably. You’re right that such minutia of societal detail isn’t for everyone. My players can’t stand, for the most part, a world where you walk into a shop and by a +3 scythe of frost. Then again, I’ve played with those who want so much magic that one could walk down the street and accidentally kick a low-charge wand of magic missles out of the sewer grate.

It’s a matter of taste.

Making magic items, or acquiring any unique item in the game, can be a rich source of high-adventure gaming. One just needs to think in logical terms when a campaign begins. Magicians are unlikely to sell very dangerous items, or even accept a commission (to summon a mercane, or otherwise) for such, unless the PC is question has something else about him or her that fits with the “commissioned” NPC’s own goals and/or outlook.

Add power components to your game, for example, and the fact that the hireling is not going to be the one to go get the rare Chartreuse Lotus of Abu-dabu. What do you have then? The PCs have to find where the lotus is and acquire it. It once flourished in the remote hills of the dry land. That it can now only be found in the personal, desert garden of a selfish and mad blue dragon…well, too bad.

Add a law that prohibits the sale of martial weapons on the open market. When your reputable PCs want one, they have to get it from a legitimate authority. Less scrupulous PCs have to get it through less scrupulous means. For the do-gooder, throw in a local lord who is corrupt, but obeys the letter of the law (LE). The PCs might be relieved of their martial weapons upon entering that lord’s domain. Then they find out how evil the lord is….

Anything can be a source of adventure. It just depends on what you want from the game. The richer and more dynamic a world, and the harder it is to find dangerous and powerful items, the more opportunity there is for adventure. When the PCs end up with whatever they sought, the satisfaction will be greater.

In other words, whatever you choose to make detailed in your world can make it more satisfying to play. Even economics.

EDIT: Added some space!

 

[Trainz]

(shrug) I've always appreciated old-style medieval settings with fewer fantastic trappings. There's nothing worse than taking magic for granted.

Now that's a bold statement.

There is something worse than taking magic for granted: playing in a boring and dull game.

If you're playing in a game in which magic is taking for granted, but you're having a blast, then I think that, at least, the prime directive of RPG's is achieved, which is: have fun.

There's nothing worse than a DM who has narrow views, and who will follow those views in spite of general fun. I am NOT saying that this applies to you.

Just sayin', 'zall...

 

[Driddle]

Now that's a bold statement.

There is something worse than taking magic for granted: playing in a boring and dull game.

If you're playing in a game in which magic is taking for granted, but you're having a blast, then I think that, at least, the prime directive of RPG's is achieved, which is: have fun.

There's nothing worse than a DM who has narrow views, and who will follow those views in spite of general fun. I am NOT saying that this applies to you.

Just sayin', 'zall...

(and again)
For not saying this applies to me, you come pretty darn close to sounding rudely judgmental and insulting for no good reason.
Not that I'm saying you ARE that way. I'm just saying you might be close ...

 

[Qualir]

Now that's a bold statement.

There is something worse than taking magic for granted: playing in a boring and dull game.

If you're playing in a game in which magic is taking for granted, but you're having a blast, then I think that, at least, the prime directive of RPG's is achieved, which is: have fun.

There's nothing worse than a DM who has narrow views, and who will follow those views in spite of general fun. I am NOT saying that this applies to you.

Just sayin', 'zall...

Of course, the same can be said about players. Some players follow the assumption that their way is the only way, just like some DMs. Ultimately those who end up having the most fun are the ones who usually compromise with eachother and try to bring some aspect of every player into the game(and remember that DMs are just players in a slightly different role).

Of course, sometimes those knock down drag out cat fights between gamers can be fun. They do relieve tension (especially when between scantily clad female players who actually believe that chainmail bikinis provide protection )

 

[Trainz]

(and again)
For not saying this applies to me, you come pretty darn close to sounding rudely judgmental and insulting for no good reason.
Not that I'm saying you ARE that way. I'm just saying you might be close ...

It IS hard to pass the right message through a message board. I'm just glad I had the wits to include that precision, and I am glad you didn't take it bad.