DMs against the Magical Wal-Mart

[Orius]

The DM might put in a monster that's immune to axes (but vulnerable to flaming swords) just so he can 'prove' that you should have kept it.

In which case, the DM is proving that he is a dork.

 

[LordVyreth]

I handle things a little differently in my game. Basically, I start with the maximum gp values in the DMG. If what they're looking to buy or sell isn't at least in that ball park, there's no way anyone there has it or can afford to buy it. Now, if that's not a problem, the player can roll a Buy or Sell check as appropriate. The Buy check has a DC based on the item's type (staffs overall have a higher DC than potions or scrolls, for example,) and overall gp value. They tend to range from around 12 for the lowest value items, to 35 or more for the good stuff. The roll is modified by the city's NPC level modifier (again found in the DMG) and their own charisma score. If they make a Buy check, that item is for sale somewhere in the city, and can be immediately purchased at book price. If not, they can still get it, but they have to have it commissioned and wait the appropriate amount of time to get the item made. Sell costs are similar, but the NPC level modifier only costs for half. If a Sell check is made, they found an interested buyer and can sell it at full book price. If not, they sell it at half book price, to a more general buyer (not a magic Wal Mart, per sec, but more likely a mages guild, a weapon shop, a typical gnomish curio shop, or whatever's appropriate.) I use the Charisma modifier because the player's skill shouldn't affect what's actually available. A pursuasive person might be able to convince a reluctant buyer/seller to agree to a deal, but if no one has, say, a staff of healing, than it doesn't matter if the buyer is a 1st level mook or a 75th level bard with triple digit Diplomacy and Gather Information scores.

One problem I do have, and am looking for advice from others on this thread about, is how to deal with "neat" items? You know, Figurines of Wondrous Power, Rods of Wonder, Decanters of Endless Water, all the named weapons, unique items you made up, and so on? How do you encourage a player to keep a few of those instead of immediately selling to add another plus to a weapon, armor, or such?

 

[ph0rk]

I totally support the idea that a character can be built around a weapon. What if your character concept is to be the greatest duelist that ever lived? Finding magical greatswords and axes isn't going to do such a character a whole lot of good. Your feats and stats may make you the greatest swordsman but think about how higher end monsters have DR... the greatest swordsman in the world isn't going to have a chance if he doesn't get his hands on a magical weapon.

Weapon availability is one of the pitfalls of being a specialist. Sure, you rock with your chosen weapon, but there will be times when there is a slightly better weapon available to you that doesn't fit your specialty. (You'll likely still have better numbers with your chosen weapon).

If -nobody- can commission items, then why should your character get a break?

I am very much in favor of standard random loot tables; I beleive that is what was intended and that CRs are calculated with that in mind.

If players are allowed to pick and choose their magic items too much they will end up more powerful (by a wide margin) than they would have been if they had to go with the luck of the draw.

Specializing in a weapon is a great sacrifice, and there should be times that the character has to think about weapon choice. Your greatsword wielder should keep a backup greatclub anyway, just in case there are an clay golems around the corner...

 

[reiella]

I am very much in favor of standard random loot tables; I beleive that is what was intended and that CRs are calculated with that in mind.

If players are allowed to pick and choose their magic items too much they will end up more powerful (by a wide margin) than they would have been if they had to go with the luck of the draw.

Just a quick fun question for this supposition. How do those with the 'random loot' get it? From other critters with random loot?

Just a bit confused here as to the implication, given that there exists mechanics at least for people to create their items of choice.

It isn't as if Wizards go around creating 'random magic items' for the monsters to pick up usually .

 

[Saeviomagy]

One problem I do have, and am looking for advice from others on this thread about, is how to deal with "neat" items? You know, Figurines of Wondrous Power, Rods of Wonder, Decanters of Endless Water, all the named weapons, unique items you made up, and so on? How do you encourage a player to keep a few of those instead of immediately selling to add another plus to a weapon, armor, or such?

Make sure that they're useful?

Make sure that a single one of them isn't the bulk of the treasure for an adventure?

So far, our group has sold all the really top level items like that we've found, primarily because we were getting one or two items that made up most of the treasure for an adventure.

Spoiler

The speaker in dreams for instance has a ring of wizardry (20,000gp), when every other item in the adventure is worth 4000 or less. So we would have liked to sell it (instead the character with it disappeared). The standing stone has a crystal ball (worth 40,000), and the nearest other item in that adventure is a sword worth about 8,000. So we sold the crystal ball. If these items had appeared amongst other loot worth a commesurate amount, allowing us to split treasure fairly, then we would probably have kept them. We've kept figurines of wondrous power, bags of tricks and the like.

 

[Uller]

I don't have any problem with PCs buying and selling magic items. My DMing motto: "This is the PCs'story...I'm just here to help them tell it."

If I give the PCs a +3 battle axe and none of them really want it, I have no problem with them selling it (for 25%-50% of its value depending on diplomacy check) and maybe purchasing something else that they find more useful. I really have no interest in wasting precious table time dealing with this unless it is relevant to the current adventure. In all cases, purchasing a magic item takes double the amount of time it takes to make it. So they can't just run out to the "Magic Walmart" and buy that scroll of restoration they need...they need to wait for it to be made for them (essentially it is assumed that they have to find someone to make the item for them, but I'm not about to RP it out...that would be a massive waste of time, IMO). Also, I have veto power over what magic items can be purchased just for the sake of game balance.

Why should I care what magic items the PCs have?...as long as they are reasonably well balanced among the PC and against the campaign world as a whole, it's all good.

What else are the PCs supposed to do with all the gold they find?

 

[Geoff Watson]

As for a PC saying 'I built my character around an axe', what nonsense. Learn to improvise. Be a little flexible. And, in my own opinion, what a qaint way to build a PC. Does s/he have an axe fetish? Sure, maybe s/he likes the axe best, has all kinds of feats around it, well, go around trying to trade your +1 sword you just found for a +1 axe, in the meantime, either save the sword for trading or use it when necessary. Sheesh...

Trading?
Most of the time 'no magic items for sale' also means 'no magic items for trade'.
Why should the player expect to be able to trade magic items if he can't buy or sell them?

Geoff.

 

[Pants]

Why should the player expect to be able to trade magic items if he can't buy or sell them?

Geoff.

Because, I think at some point, 'more gold' becomes pretty damn meaningless. Say you have a 15th level Wizard who has heaps upon heaps of valuable (but nonmagical) treasures left over from his adventuring days. Now place this Wizard in a campaign setting where making magical items is extremely difficult. Mr. Wizard has nothing besides real estate and perhaps some other slightly expensive commodities to spend his heap of treasure on. Now, the PC's enter in and ask him to build a Widget +4. Now, the Wizard could get just more gold for his XP and all of this trouble he's going through, or he could barter for some exotic magical item that one of the PC's may have. That magical item is going to be worth more than the gold - at least to him it will be.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[reiella]

Because, I think at some point, 'more gold' becomes pretty damn meaningless. Say you have a 15th level Wizard who has heaps upon heaps of valuable (but nonmagical) treasures left over from his adventuring days. Now place this Wizard in a campaign setting where making magical items is extremely difficult. Mr. Wizard has nothing besides real estate and perhaps some other slightly expensive commodities to spend his heap of treasure on. Now, the PC's enter in and ask him to build a Widget +4. Now, the Wizard could get just more gold for his XP and all of this trouble he's going through, or he could barter for some exotic magical item that one of the PC's may have. That magical item is going to be worth more than the gold - at least to him it will be.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Only trouble with that I see is that said wizard is only going to be interested in a rather small subset of items that ae possible from the random treasure pool (ie, the items he can immediately use, that he hasn't traded for already).

Or, of course, if you use the 'upgrade item' rules and kitbash them roughly into a "refurbish item" rule, it could actually result in the Wizard losing no experience or gold for the act of 'changing their magic equipment' into something (of equivilant value) that's useful to the party/other traders... Most likly, also not a suitable solution .

Of course, it would nicely in a Low Magic world, but you'd probably have to 'trim' the item lists to have items that are ... more favorable to trade in general .

Unless the Wizard has some reason he wants to horde magic items like a dragon anyway.

 

[hong]

Because, I think at some point, 'more gold' becomes pretty damn meaningless. Say you have a 15th level Wizard who has heaps upon heaps of valuable (but nonmagical) treasures left over from his adventuring days. Now place this Wizard in a campaign setting where making magical items is extremely difficult. Mr. Wizard has nothing besides real estate and perhaps some other slightly expensive commodities to spend his heap of treasure on. Now, the PC's enter in and ask him to build a Widget +4. Now, the Wizard could get just more gold for his XP and all of this trouble he's going through, or he could barter for some exotic magical item that one of the PC's may have. That magical item is going to be worth more than the gold - at least to him it will be.

Makes perfect sense to me.

The whole point of having this thing called "money" in the game, and in the game world, is to avoid the tedium of barter in the first place.

Playing out the exchange of a +2 sword for a +1 full plate and three potions of invisibility is fun, the first time. It might even be fun, the second time. It'll probably be annoying as heck the tenth time. That goes double if your players are the sort who'd rather get on with the heroics, rather than bogging down with the housekeeping duties.

If you play in the stereotypical extended campaign where people go from 1st to 20th level, then opportunities to buy/sell/trade magic items will crop up a lot, unless you limit people to 3-4 items for their entire lives. Which is certainly doable, but involves changing a lot more about D&D than just the item prices.