DMG says monsters that are more than 7 levels above party level are not a good match. DMG says soldiers that are significantly higher level than party level can be problematic. DMG2 says to not increase the defenses of elites, and to lower the defenses of old elites. Ignore all these suggestions and what do you get? A poor encounter.
DMs sure can make life hard... :(
- Thread starter DarkLord Of DForce
- Start date
I'm not saying it was a good encounter for normal practice (or maybe even at all), but it was just a single encounter. Heck, if I only played adventures with nothing but "good" encounters, I'd never have a game to play in. Sometimes you'll get that long, tough encounter. A little perspective can go a long way. That encounter can give appreciation for other encounters if one chooses to look at it in a positive light instead of feeling victimized by an unfair DM.
Nytmare
David Jose
Ahhhh... I misread what you had said. I thought you were saying that because the golem's were in Dragon, it's the players' fault that they didn't memorize their stats, or hide a copy of the article under the table.
DarkLord Of DForce
First Post
Okay, thanks for all the replies - much appreciated from the veteran crowd here,
as always.
Umm...my son and I are starting a campaign here at home, with his little sister,
and some of his friends - so we *are* still playing. I wasn't going to leave him
out in the cold gang.
He's also contacting some of the D&D gaming groups at the local community
college, so he's good to go.
I told him that our recent experiences weren't normal, but atypical... so he does
understand.
Thanks!
as always.
Umm...my son and I are starting a campaign here at home, with his little sister,
and some of his friends - so we *are* still playing. I wasn't going to leave him
out in the cold gang.
He's also contacting some of the D&D gaming groups at the local community
college, so he's good to go.
I told him that our recent experiences weren't normal, but atypical... so he does
understand.
Thanks!
DarkLord Of DForce
First Post
I'll try to address several things that were brought up here in one post so as to not drag things out too much....
We did do a monster check. Our wizard and sorceror started attacking their will and reflex, which were 24 and 24. That helped some. Unfortunately, our sorc has poison skills while our Wizard had sleep and something else - and the golems are immune to poison, disease and sleep. I did -not- have Radiant Vengeance in my build, but I did have Bond of Censure, which failed since I couldn't pull them. (low dmg there anyways). I had some dailies that didn't hit AC, but I didn't want to use them.
Here is the problem - we are at the top of that tower - they were the guardians to the last room at the top of that tower. We already know that the end of this part of the campaign Boss is in the next room. (the DM did hint at that). We also know that there will be nothing beyond a 5 min rest before we enter the next room.
So no one wanted to bring out their big guns. In other words, no one in our party wanted to pop their dailies or action points, just trying to get into the room. I have Menacing Presence, which would have knocked their AC down by 2, and that would have helped, but what if we got in the next room and the Boss's AC is 35?
The result was a catch-22 situation. Much harder time beating the guardians, which certainly would have gone easier if we had used our dailies, but then facing a certified Boss in the next room without them.
Kinda see the pickle we were in?
We did do a monster check. Our wizard and sorceror started attacking their will and reflex, which were 24 and 24. That helped some. Unfortunately, our sorc has poison skills while our Wizard had sleep and something else - and the golems are immune to poison, disease and sleep. I did -not- have Radiant Vengeance in my build, but I did have Bond of Censure, which failed since I couldn't pull them. (low dmg there anyways). I had some dailies that didn't hit AC, but I didn't want to use them.
Here is the problem - we are at the top of that tower - they were the guardians to the last room at the top of that tower. We already know that the end of this part of the campaign Boss is in the next room. (the DM did hint at that). We also know that there will be nothing beyond a 5 min rest before we enter the next room.
So no one wanted to bring out their big guns. In other words, no one in our party wanted to pop their dailies or action points, just trying to get into the room. I have Menacing Presence, which would have knocked their AC down by 2, and that would have helped, but what if we got in the next room and the Boss's AC is 35?
The result was a catch-22 situation. Much harder time beating the guardians, which certainly would have gone easier if we had used our dailies, but then facing a certified Boss in the next room without them.
Kinda see the pickle we were in?
Last edited:
ricardo440
First Post
Hi,
I'd ask have you spoken with the GM?
I was in a similar position a few years ago. We liked our GM, but every game was a continual battle against almost impossible odds. We all talked and moaned and decided we might quit. He heard of this and quite rightly was "Why on earth didn't you tell me you were thinking of quitting?!" and he had a point. We then had a rational conversation and said we wen't enjoying the silly hard fights. And he changed the way he designed the games.
We didn't want to talk to him in case we offended his feelings by saying we wern't enjoying it. But the alternative - to quit - would be far worse.
Much better to have a chat over a pint/tea/coffee and say how you see it and that you're not finding it that fun/fun could be massively increased by x,y,z.
I'd ask have you spoken with the GM?
I was in a similar position a few years ago. We liked our GM, but every game was a continual battle against almost impossible odds. We all talked and moaned and decided we might quit. He heard of this and quite rightly was "Why on earth didn't you tell me you were thinking of quitting?!" and he had a point. We then had a rational conversation and said we wen't enjoying the silly hard fights. And he changed the way he designed the games.
We didn't want to talk to him in case we offended his feelings by saying we wern't enjoying it. But the alternative - to quit - would be far worse.
Much better to have a chat over a pint/tea/coffee and say how you see it and that you're not finding it that fun/fun could be massively increased by x,y,z.
This is mistake #1 too many groups make. Saving your dailies for the final encounter is often poor resource management. If you need them, use them. The boss could be a stun-locking meatsack with the AC of an Orc. Getting to the final battle as relatively healthy and fresh as possible is often more important that getting there beat to a pulp with your dailies yet to burn.
Agree 100%. With 9 players, you have 27 daily attack powers (assuming you're level 9+). If you aren't using *any* in a tough encounter, you're doing something wrong. And if you need 27 dailies to take down a boss, that's a ridiculous boss.
One of the interesting things I see in this discussion is the near universal assumption that the DM is vindictive. Let's not forget the possibility that he's inept or just stupid. It's possible that he truly had no idea his encounter sucked or that the players were unhappy.
Talk to the DM. If your conversation confirms that he is, in fact, a vindictive, immature powergamer, well, that sucks. But you may instead discover that the DM has a "holy crap!!" moment when you inform him that his encounter was terrible.
A final point of note is that 9 player parties really blow. They make for long, dragged-out encounters almost no matter what the DM does. However poorly your DM acted, it's important to note that the odds were quite heavily stacked against him.
Talk to the DM. If your conversation confirms that he is, in fact, a vindictive, immature powergamer, well, that sucks. But you may instead discover that the DM has a "holy crap!!" moment when you inform him that his encounter was terrible.
A final point of note is that 9 player parties really blow. They make for long, dragged-out encounters almost no matter what the DM does. However poorly your DM acted, it's important to note that the odds were quite heavily stacked against him.
It dosent matter wether the DM was good or bad. It dosent matter that the encounter design was good or bad. All that matters is that the fight was not fun.
If things are getting so bad that players are wanting to quit the game, then there is a problem. It dosent matter if the fights are easy or hard, or if the DM is good or not. If the only thing that happens is frustration, then things need to change
If things are getting so bad that players are wanting to quit the game, then there is a problem. It dosent matter if the fights are easy or hard, or if the DM is good or not. If the only thing that happens is frustration, then things need to change
