DMs: What Powers Do PCs Get That You Hate?

[Aulirophile]

Trick Strike requires a hit.


The problem with the powers is that there is no defense against them except in some cases, a possible Immunity to Charm or something.

Take Compulsion for example. The Bard can move Orcus if he wants to with a 5th level power.

It's an issue of fluff. It doesn't make sense that powerful creatures can be pulled around like lynch pins 100% of the time. No save. No to hit.

It's bad design IMO.

As for being ashamed, I think people should be ashamed when awesome takes priority over balance and reasonableness.

Rule of Cool, DMG, broken is OK as long as it is awesome (and Come and Get It is). Actually I'm going to take a moment here and plug 4e's DMG. It is, far and away, the best primer text a D&D edition has ever had on how to be a good DM.

And I don't see that as a problem. That is a good thing and it makes the powers fun. D&D is a game. Games should be fun. 4e has been very well designed to be fun, including errata for abilities that are actually too powerful, vs fun abilities that are fine.

And... really? In a world of magic "something doesn't make sense"?

 

[Stalker0]

I've never had a beef with come and get it (we always try crazy ways to explain it, from the classic I spin my sword around so fast it creates a whirlwind, to pure intimidation).


Though I will say its still hands down the best 7th level encounter power for a fighter.

 

[blargney the second]

Hydra Charge is pretty damn good too. I've been tempted to retrain C&GI out for that one.

 

[MrMyth]

I don't have any problem with Come and Get It. I am a bit baffled at the amount of hate leveled at this power, to be honest.

I'm a fan of the power, but I really don't get how much people refuse to accept that some folks are not. It is a power that forces enemies to move whether doing so would be a death sentence or not - that can easily be frustrating to GMs both on a tactical level, and from the perspective of making sense.

I'm perfectly fine with that within the narrative of 4E, but it doesn't take much to understand how a DM could get upset when his cunning sniper who has found the perfect hiding spot suddenly goes into a berserker charge into the middle of several enemies for no reason, without even a roll taking place.

Look, this is a thread for people to complain about the powers they don't like. Anyone coming in here and making that seem strange or unreasonable, or outright saying they should be ashamed... seriously guys, come on. That's not cool. (Of course, neither is saying I should be ashamed for liking the power - can't we just discuss powers we like or dislike without being told we are wrong for doing so?)

If people really want a thread about how awesome "Come and Get It" is, wouldn't it be better to simply create a new one rather than come in here and undercut and attack the entire point of this thread?

 

[Kingreaper]

I think you are over exaggerating the word "lots".

Forceful Push does 1 square instead of 2, 1 opponent instead of upwards of 8,

Wait, UPWARDS of 8?


Are you playing with a large character as the fighter?

'cause if not, the fighter has a max of 8 squares next to them. And positioning such that you can actually PULL a target into each of those squares (remembering that pulls must move them closer with EVERY square of pull) is nigh on impossible in most circumstances IME.

So come and get it is generally significantly DOWNWARDS from 8 squares.

I'm perfectly fine with that within the narrative of 4E, but it doesn't take much to understand how a DM could get upset when his cunning sniper who has found the perfect hiding spot suddenly goes into a berserker charge into the middle of several enemies for no reason, without even a roll taking place

Target: each enemy in burst you can see
If the sniper has found a hiding spot, you can't see them.

 

[Kingreaper]

Trick Strike requires a hit.


The problem with the powers is that there is no defense against them except in some cases, a possible Immunity to Charm or something.

Take Compulsion for example. The Bard can move Orcus if he wants to with a 5th level power.

If you're having a 5th level character fight orcus, you've got bigger problems than the game's design.

It's an issue of fluff. It doesn't make sense that powerful creatures can be pulled around like lynch pins 100% of the time. No save. No to hit.

It's bad design IMO.

Good design goes "what situations will people actually use this for, what should we include" and makes something suitable for it's job, which isn't clunky.


"Well, what if someone decides they want to hoover their house with this whisk? Better include a hosepipe and a fan attachment, and a bag" is bad design and ends up with a clunky pile of crap that doesn't work well for ANYTHING, but heh, at least it doesn't break when people decide that applying the zombie template to a zombie 500 times is a good idea.

 

[keterys]

Deadly Positioning doesn't require a hit, and slides before each attack (at level 9). While Trick Strike is similar, it's not the one I was talking about when I said "a rogue power that lets you slide 1 before every attack"

Scattering Swing (Fighter L13 Encounter) pushes 1 on miss.

Thundering Howl (Barbarian L3 Encounter) damages and pushes a blast 3 of enemies without any attack rolls against the blast.

War Cry (Barbarian Feature) pushes a blast 3 of enemies without any attack rolls.

So, is forced movement without an attack roll actually a problem, or is it that thematically the idea of Come And Get It compelling enemies is a problem? I suspect the latter is much more of the issue for those who dislike the power, in general, and that's a stumbling block on any Martial vs. Non-Martial debate. Which is kinda interesting.

Ring of Personal Gravity is probably something I'd lump on there as not particularly liking (as a DM or player). I'm not a big fan of things that make the combat more static and more dull, and there's a surprising amount of that around.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wait, UPWARDS of 8?


Are you playing with a large character as the fighter?

Nope. 8 is just the upper edge of the range. Typically in experience, it is closer to 3, although I have seen 6.

 

[KarinsDad]

Deadly Positioning doesn't require a hit, and slides before each attack (at level 9). While Trick Strike is similar, it's not the one I was talking about when I said "a rogue power that lets you slide 1 before every attack"

Scattering Swing (Fighter L13 Encounter) pushes 1 on miss.

Thundering Howl (Barbarian L3 Encounter) damages and pushes a blast 3 of enemies without any attack rolls against the blast.

War Cry (Barbarian Feature) pushes a blast 3 of enemies without any attack rolls.

So, is forced movement without an attack roll actually a problem, or is it that thematically the idea of Come And Get It compelling enemies is a problem? I suspect the latter is much more of the issue for those who dislike the power, in general, and that's a stumbling block on any Martial vs. Non-Martial debate. Which is kinda interesting.

I actually have less problem with push without a roll than slide or pull. Physically pushing back foes with your body seems more reasonable than yelling at them and forcing them to react to your yell (or whatever other lameo rational is used for Come and Get It). I also have a problem with a Warlord yelling at an unconscious ally to "Get UP!!!" and the ally is just suddenly healed.

My problem with Martial Powers is that I do not think they should be mystical in nature. Amazing acts of physical prowess? Great. Mystical supernatural abilities that affects others without a roll? Not so great. JMO, I realize that many other people are totally fine with it.

 

[keterys]

I also have a problem with a Warlord yelling at an unconscious ally to "Get UP!!!" and the ally is just suddenly healed. My problem with Martial Powers ...

Yeah, it'd be interesting to go through all the martial powers and rejigger them to remove such things. For example, you could change inspiring word to an interrupt, not usable on someone who is unconscious or deafened, and it could be 'more realistic'.

Which is why I figure when a paladin does it - stuff like Knightly Intercession that effect: pulls 10, it's a lot more palatable to those who dislike Martial doing that kinda stuff. Tough line to walk on making sure Martial has all the right tools and is cool, with it not being allowed to do certain other things, of course, but should be doable.