DMs: What Powers Do PCs Get That You Hate?

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, it'd be interesting to go through all the martial powers and rejigger them to remove such things. For example, you could change inspiring word to an interrupt, not usable on someone who is unconscious or deafened, and it could be 'more realistic'.

Which is why I figure when a paladin does it - stuff like Knightly Intercession that effect: pulls 10, it's a lot more palatable to those who dislike Martial doing that kinda stuff. Tough line to walk on making sure Martial has all the right tools and is cool, with it not being allowed to do certain other things, of course, but should be doable.

I think that Martial Powers should do more Pushes, more Knock Prone, more certain types of conditions (like Daze or Stun), and virtually no Heals and fewer Buffs and even fewer Debuffs to some extent (except for Leader classes).

It kind of drives me crazy that a Druid really has to search to find a Healing power and nearly all of them are Dailies, but Warlords get them right and left.

 

[twilsemail]

It kind of drives me crazy that a Druid really has to search to find a Healing power and nearly all of them are Dailies, but Warlords get them right and left.

To avoid derailing further from the OP (which was about specific powers, not entire builds) I've responded here. I'm really interested to hear more from KarinsDad on this.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/276949-martial-healing.html

 

[Benimoto]

My problem with Martial Powers is that I do not think they should be mystical in nature. Amazing acts of physical prowess? Great. Mystical supernatural abilities that affects others without a roll? Not so great. JMO, I realize that many other people are totally fine with it.

I never had any big problem with come and get it. I can see that it stretches credulity to have the fighter doing it over and over in every encounter, but basically I have to concede that the awesome overrules any other objection. The fighter in my last campaign kept that power for 25 levels, IIRC, and similar to the fighter someone mentioned upthread, it was often his favorite part of any battle (the rest of which involved him taking hideous amount of damage, being afflicted with punishing conditions, or usually both at once.)

In that campaign, the only powers that really started to bother me, and eventually caused me to ask the player to retrain some of them, were when the wizard took multiple wall powers, such as Illusory Wall, Wall of Ice and eventually Wall of Force. For a while, Illusory Wall was mistakenly listed as an encounter power, which undoubtedly made things worse.

Really more than the individual powers being a problem, what really began to hurt is that the wizard would save them all for one encounter and then completely shut that encounter down. So really, it wasn't the powers themselves that started to bother me, as it was the intention to reduce the combat to fighting one or two monsters at a time, often without threat of retaliation.

 

[twilsemail]

In that campaign, the only powers that really started to bother me, [...]were when the wizard took multiple wall powers, such as Illusory Wall, Wall of Ice and eventually Wall of Force. [...]

Really more than the individual powers being a problem, what really began to hurt is that the wizard would save them all for one encounter and then completely shut that encounter down. So really, it wasn't the powers themselves that started to bother me, as it was the intention to reduce the combat to fighting one or two monsters at a time, often without threat of retaliation.

I encountered a similar problem and started ensuring that there was always an escape route for my NPCs in case of a ControllerNova. I also warned the PCs after the first time a Solo was made pretty much a waste of dice rolling that fights in the future might be spread over multiple encounters. Something like a villain running deeper into his lair and engaging a system of traps or the like.

I've also made sure the PCs knew there was a way out for the NPCs. While I can understand the appeal of novaing on a BBEG, it also trivializes them, which shouldn't happen at the climax of their (the PCs) story.

 

[Aulirophile]

Wait, UPWARDS of 8?


Are you playing with a large character as the fighter?

'cause if not, the fighter has a max of 8 squares next to them. And positioning such that you can actually PULL a target into each of those squares (remembering that pulls must move them closer with EVERY square of pull) is nigh on impossible in most circumstances IME.

Prone enemies can occupy the same square as a standing enemy. I've seen 12 (6 prone, 6 standing).

 

[keterys]

Prone enemies can occupy the same square as a standing enemy. I've seen 12 (6 prone, 6 standing).

I suspect there's table variation on forced movement stacking enemies, since in one case it seems more permissive "Ending Movement: You can end your movement in an ally’s square only if the ally is prone." - has to be an ally, ally can potentially stop you, etc vs the forced movements' "can walk" language.

But yeah, getting 16 would be a nice one. Even better would be 25 or 34, using 3-dimensions

 

[Aulirophile]

I suspect there's table variation on forced movement stacking enemies, since in one case it seems more permissive "Ending Movement: You can end your movement in an ally’s square only if the ally is prone." - has to be an ally, ally can potentially stop you, etc vs the forced movements' "can walk" language.

But yeah, getting 16 would be a nice one. Even better would be 25 or 34, using 3-dimensions

Until prone allies count as hindering terrain, it works fine under the forced movement and occupying a square rules. That is the RAW, anyway.

You know... if you were flying and surrounded by flying monsters, you could get 26 monsters. I might have to set that fight up for my players...

EDIT: Could be more. Hover capable fliers who are knocked prone now "float" with the recent errata, rather then fall. So the absolute max CAGI can hit is 52 enemies, assuming they are all fliers, the fighter is flying, half of them are prone. And they are all small/medium (Actually tiny monsters could up that, but I digress).

 

[keterys]

Until prone allies count as hindering terrain, it works fine under the forced movement and occupying a square rules. That is the RAW, anyway.

For clarity, there is also significant table variation on whether you can use forced movement to send creatures through their own allies. Some DMs will allow it (after all, you could walk there), while others won't (it doesn't choose to let him through - it's not considered an ally for that maneuver).

The precise same argument applies to trying to force prone and standing enemies together.

Technically, there's no rule preventing multiple prone enemies from being in the same square, so you could do infinite numbers of enemies, theorycrafted.

 

[firesnakearies]

Technically, there's no rule preventing multiple prone enemies from being in the same square, so you could do infinite numbers of enemies, theorycrafted.

Haha, awesome.


"I found an awesome loophole! On page 242 it says "Add oregano to taste!" It doesn't say how much oregano, or what sort of taste! You can add as much oregano as you want! I'm going to make my friends eat infinite oregano and they'll have to do it because the recipe says so!"

 

[Rechan]

It kind of drives me crazy that a Druid really has to search to find a Healing power and nearly all of them are Dailies, but Warlords get them right and left.

A druid is a controller. Healing is not a controller's point.

A warlord is a leader. Healing is a leader's point.

If you were comparing BETWEEN leaders (Warlord vs. Bard), then sure. But just because the Druid has magic doesn't mean that the druid can/should be able to heal.