Do alignments improve the gaming experience?

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I'm not judging the player. I'm judging the character's long term behavior according to D&D's morality.
I don't think anyone said you're judging the player directly. Though if the player disagrees with your evaluation of his/her PC's conduct then there might be some implicit judgement there.

What I am saying is that there is no such thing as "D&D morality". The SRD and Gygax both explicate good and evil using the ordinary vocabulary of ordinary moral usage.

Heck, Gygax doesn't even try to tell us whether morality should be understood in deontological or consequentialist terms, given that he identifies good with both of these!
 

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As I recall, you don't actually lose the token. You just fail to gain a new one. Isn't that how the compels work? It's been a while and I'm too lazy to look it up.

Which is significantly different from actually losing class abilities and whatnot. You don't lose anything, as I recall, you just don't gain anything either.

No, you do loose a fate point if you want to refuse a compel... and you sort of do loose abilities (or at least the ability to use them) since it costs fate points for you to invoke your own aspects...
 

One big difference is that the GM (or the rules themselves) aren't pre-defining your aspects for you. So by choosing your aspects, you're choosing what kinds of conflicts or troubles you want to have. Basically, when you put down an aspect, you're signing up for it to be compelled. (Although certainly some aspects are far more compellable than others, which some players also use when constructing their characters.) In this way, the GM isn't really demanding you act according to his dictates, but pushing the character to act as the player stated it would (or sometimes, pushing for the world to react to your character the way you said it would). The nature of the aspects is always in the hands of the players. Additionally, since aspects are defined in a freeform way, your aspects can be as specific and detailed as you see fit. There can be tremendous mechanical variety to characters in Fate who might all be "paladins" under a D&D scheme.

But your aspects are limited by genre, who your character is, setting, etc... so to a point they are pre-defined. You aren't going to have an aspect like "uncontrollable magic power" if your GM is running a grim and gritty game in a cyberpunk setting, because it doesn't fit the setting. You also choose your class, race, alignment, etc. in D&D and through choosing these things (since these choices are not pre-defined for your character either) you are choosing the kinds of conflict and troubles you want to have... You don't play a character class bound by moral rules if you want the freedom to act in any way you see fit... Just like you wouldn't pick an aspect like "Thrill Seeker" and spend the majority of the game scared to act.

Also, when you choose to play a character who has powers based on alignment, you're signing up for having to abide by the GM's interpretation of that alignment (just as a DM decides in Fate whether an aspect can or cannot be invoked, compelled, etc. in a certain way...). The DM isn't demanding you act a certain way with alignment either according to how you phrased it above... but pushing you to act the way you said you would when you picked that alignment and/or a certain character class...

Speaking to mechanical variety as far as paladins go, especially since in D&D a paladin is a specific class and in fate it's a descriptor... that's comparing apples and oranges... I'm also not sure how much mechanical variety there is in a fate paladin since it's pretty specific as far as what aspects actually do... (+2 to a skill roll, +2 to a friend's roll, +2 to a passive source of opposition, or reroll your dice). I'm not seeing much variety here, in fact it seems downright anemic compared with what going to level 20 in the D&D paladin class of almost any edition gives you.

As for the punishment angle...Fate points are more of an economy during play, rather than finite resource. You should be anticipating such things coming (and going), and Fate points don't usually get treated as a rare resource. While I suppose you are technically correct, it usually doesn't feel that way, IME. In Fate, if you find yourself running out of Fate Points, its usually a sign that the character isn't working the way you intended it, or it isn't striking the interest of the rest of the group. Additionally, you're character never stops being <whatever> merely on the whim of the GM. That is, you may have to pay a Fate point for it, and if it happens a few times you might want to reconsider the problematic aspects, but the GM can't suddenly declare that two of your aspects just don't work and your stunts are all gone.

Can you invoke your "paladin" aspect without a fate point? If not then sooner or later the GM will dictate what you should do if you want to retain the ability to be a paladin in Fate. If you loose a point every time you resist a compel, and by default the most Fate points you can start out with is 3 (though if you want an extra stunt or two that drops it to 2 or 1) it seems like it's just a more obfuscated way of making it so that the GM can enforce "good play" on your part... Especially since as per Fate Core the GM is the final arbiter on invokes, compels, etc. I don't see much of a difference between a GM controlling through alignment penalties or through resource economy when they are both basically up to the judgement of the GM.

Now, IME, declining a compel rarely happens, and when it does its usually perceived as an invitation for the GM to come up with something more interesting (although the GM can also up his offer to 2 FP). I can't say if that's a universal thing with Fate or not, but it seems common, at least.

So basically most of the time the player is going along with how the GM feels they should be playing their character and gets rewarded for it (Yet for some reason they chafe when expected to do the same thing in D&D???)... I understand because I wouldn't want to run out of Fate points either and not be able to use my paladin aspect... the same way I wouldn't want to fall in D&D and loose my paladin's powers.
 
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Hang on though. You claim you want an objective definition of alignment provided by the DM. But, if every Good god defines Good differently, then how can there be an objective definition of alignment?

i never said they had different definitions good. There is going to be differences of personality and temperment, though.
 

How is it consistent if the definition of a given alignment changes depending on which NPC you talk to?

Most PCs and NPCs will have different views on good and evil, because they have limited perspective. They are going to hve to rely on things like the actions of the gods to help them determine what is good and what is evil. So for normal characters, there will still be that subjective variety. It is just the settiny theh inhabit is one where there are objective moral forces in the world, and these forces interact directly with people.

I thought the whole point of having a single voice determine alignment was so you could have a single, objective definition that everyone is following. But, now you're claiming that alignment will always be relative to the NPC doing the defining.

no, that isnt the point. The point is to have the arbiters of morality in the setting adhere to consistent understandings of the various alignments. The characters still have a limited view of the world, and have to make their own judgements. But when their actions are judged it is by this objective standard (so the GM decides when and how alignments change, when clerics or paladins fall short, etc).

To put it more concretely, presuming a standard D&D pantheistic world with numerous like aligned gods, if the DM isn't giving definitive answers, then how can the players act on any information they get? Is a given act good or not? Well, it depends on who you ask, in the game world?

there is going to be a certain amount of uncertainty here, but it isnt going to be as much as you encounter in the real wolrd. When maladhyr is pissed, he'll let you know. His priesthood, through trial and error probably has a pretty solid code at this point and knows what is kosher and what isnt. And the GM isnt trying to screw players here, that isnt the purpose either, so the player can ask "based on what i know would maladhyr be cool with this?" And the GM can give him a helpful response.

This is how i have played D&D for years and it absolutely works. The only time i ever see this approach run into issues is when people take the alignment issue too personallly. But no one i game with presently does that. And none of the GMs i game with use alignment to trick or surprise players. Different GMs in the group handle the line of communication differently, but in all cases, it adds to our experience.
 

What I am saying is that there is no such thing as "D&D morality". The SRD and Gygax both explicate good and evil using the ordinary vocabulary of ordinary moral usage.

Heck, Gygax doesn't even try to tell us whether morality should be understood in deontological or consequentialist terms, given that he identifies good with both of these!

D&D alignment wasn't written for philosophy students though, it is meant for everyday people who really dont worry about that sort of distinction. I minored in philosophy and took a special interest in ethics and theology, but with something like D&D i turn that switch off and follow the GMs lead, and it hasn't been a problem for me. It just isn't a system where this sort of reasoning will be fruitful. When in make my own settings outside of D&D, where alignment isnt part of the cosmology (or at the very least where cosmology is not the same) then i find it easier to apply some if these concepts because i am building these aspects of the setting. So i do appreciate what you are after here, i just dont see D&D as thically striving for that.

In a somewhat related example, i was in a campaign where the GM was describing the temple and rites of a particular god, and it felt like a watered down Congresgationalist service. To me, that isnt how a polytheistic religion is likely to operate, where you have gods in charge of specific things. But that is because i knew more about those kinds of religions than the gm. I just turn that off, and accept the reality of what the GM presents. It is like watching a historical film. I could get hung up on each anachronism that emerges, or just sit back and enjoy the movie.

But i do appreciate where you are coming from, even though i imagine we'd still differ a bit on apppropriate implementation (if only because you seem ti be interested mainly in the narrative elements and i am interested mainly in inhabiting the setting from character point of view). Infvy current setting for our Network system, i tried to strike a balance and created two tiers for the cosmology. There is a distant creator deity, almost a demiurge type force called aetia, who doesn't interact directly with the world much but is a sort if objective standard if morality, but aetia created the immanent gods who in turn made the races and shaped the earth. These gods are less perfect than aetia, somewhat petty, but interact regularly with the world. So th morality ofthe setting ends up being quite gray. Unless aetia directly communes with someone, which virtually never happens, then the players are free to characterize good and evil as they wish. They still have to contend with these petty gods, but that is less about morality and more about anticipating the will of deeply flawed entities (still, the gm does play the gods, so there is a consistent source for their decisions).
 
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D&D alignment wasn't written for philosophy students though, it is meant for everyday people who really dont worry about that sort of distinction.

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It just isn't a system where this sort of reasoning will be fruitful.
Well of course it won't if you are using mechanical alignment! That's just one reason why I don't use it.

And it's not like I'm in some obscure minority. Alignment has been a contentious part of the game for 30-odd years (at least), and it's not like I'm Robinson Crusoe in this thread.
 

And it's not like I'm in some obscure minority. Alignment has been a contentious part of the game for 30-odd years (at least), and it's not like I'm Robinson Crusoe in this thread.

I am not suggesting you are. I tend to speak in these terms in debates over alignment myself, but i think you will agree most players gripes with alignment dont usually stem from worry about the distinction between consequentialism and deontology. I can usually see all but one of my fellow player's eyes glaze over when i start talking this way. I am not saying the distinction is unimportant or uninteresting (heck it is why i enjoyed gone baby gone). I just think it isnt the kind of reasoning that goes into something like D&D. It would be like taking high level principles of physics and useing that to evaluate D&D's falling damage.

I edited my original post to elaborate on this point a bit more.
 

This all strikes me as pretty close to Beliefs in Burning Wheel. It's very different from the tradition of mechanical alignment in D&D.

In some ways, it is. You may recall that I considered BW and Fate to be similar when viewed in extremely broad strokes. In this case, one big difference is that you don't really have to frame your aspects in any deep moral or ethical way. You could, for instance, have an aspect Why does it always have to be snakes? which isn't really going to put any big questions on the table.
 

My first response is..."compared to just ignoring them". That is, IME (and I seem hardly alone in this, given the thread), alignments tend to actually detract from the gaming experience, and the more they are focused upon, the worse it gets.
I thought the Allegiances from d20 Modern were a pretty decent substitute for alignment. But yeah; my preferred method is to replace it with absolutely nothing. The whole idea is, for me and my playstyle, at least, a flawed concept from the get-go. There really isn't a comparable subsystem that I'd rather see; I'd rather see the concept just ignored completely.

That said, it's not hard to find alternatives to alignment that I'd prefer, if for some reason I had to have one.
 

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