Do alignments improve the gaming experience?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Back ca 2001 running 3.0 I had two Monk players with Lawful Neutral on their character sheets. Their behaviour was sometimes Evil. Eventually I told them that their Alignment had shifted to LE. This then caused them to go Full Evil, much more Evil than before, much more Evil than if I had not told them about the shift.
@N'raac basically covered it all. You do realise the younger we were the sillier we played, generally speaking. I can remember some very daft scenarios that were created by both me as player and DM. I certainly do not blame the game for my immaturity or insincerity in my roleplaying. I can certainly understand @Hussar when he says he wont sit down with players like that - but alignment is not to blame.


The drama of his heroic but doomed last stand, indeed of the whole arc, would have been destroyed if I had told the player "You're Evil now" the moment he killed the captured noblewomen. "You're Evil now" is a GM hammer declaration which
IME is inimical to any possibility of genuine drama or pathos.

Yeah, well if you're gonna DM it like that for sure you are going to rob your game of genuine drama & pathos and as I have mentioned upthread, tracking alignment and implementation are completely different issues.

As for d6 Star Wars, sadly I am not familiar with it enough to provide valuable feedback but as @N'raac said, D&D seems, when comparing it to your Star Wars example, to provide more discretion on the part of the DM.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

No, Strength, Sun, and Beauty. You give me those as the principles of the deity, and I've already got ideas for how that god will view a variety of things - probably different ones to someone else who sees those

So people (DMs & players) might view these differently so there is room for ambiguity.

whereas if you give my Chaotic Good I don't have anything more than a starting point - is that Chaotic in terms of individual freedom in an ordered society, anarchy, and what does this particular society consider good?

As there is room for ambiguity in alignment, I do not see the difference then when it comes to evaluating PC actions.

The D&D guides reflected deities both with alignment and domains. What you decided to make of the culture/traditions of the people following those deities could either be drawn from DM fiat or from relevant source material of the particular setting.
 

Now I am no cosmological entity. I'm not equipped with heightened metaphysical perception nor intelligence agents. I'm not equipped with whatever measure of precognition they possess (mystical divinations or whatever the possess to say "weal" or "woe" during divine consultation) to adjudicate the long view at a level far removed from my mere mortal means of extrapolation.

Forgive me, If I have misunderstood you at any point given the high-vocabulary you prefer to use, but here goes:

Your above statement appears, IMO, to be a rediculous argument. If you cannot roleplay a cosmological entity due to your own personal limitations, and use that as your basis - how do you possibly NPC any character within your campaigns which you do not have the required necessary expertise? For instance:
  • Creatures (opponents) with 18 or more intelligence (no slight intended - funny enough there was a recent thread on this)
  • Victims of a violent crime who might have emotional scarring, specifically when you might have not had experience with: rape, molestation, mutation...etc
  • Immortal beings, or near immortal beings...
  • Monsters
  • Wizards - you certainly do not possess the skill set..etc

Can you see where I'm going with this?


As such, aligning my perspective with how they expect me to frame adversity such that we test those micro-beliefs/ideals through focused conflict, is much easier.

Can you give me an example of where you and your players have an aligned perspective where you framed an expected adversity?

I feel perfectly comfortable in adjudicating when someone makes a deposit into their morale bank account. I understand concepts of good will, commitment to duty that bears no immediate fruit personally, pursuing the just path despite the lack of tangible returns (in fact, most times the just path is tangibly punitive to the party that pursues it), being kind without cause, being steadfast in your ability to be relied upon and in taking accountability for your own failures. These things are easy to wrap my head around. I feel qualified in my personal life to say "yes, Bob has just deposited into his moral bank account...any good faith observer should see him as better than was before the transaction...I certainly deem him so." However, withdrawals are abundantly more difficult to quantify and qualify.

Why, did you quantify good wills that you need to quantify withdrawals? How much of a deposit is a 'being kind without cause'?
As for qualifying, IMO, its not rocket science. What is trickier is the implementation of the judgement, coming up with something creative, determining the scene to be framed and what kind of punishment suits the 'crime'.
 
Last edited:

So, was there any prior discussion with the players that the activities they were undertaking seemed much more frequently Evil than Good, and perhaps their alignments were shifting, or at risk of shifting? Or did you just spring it on them one day, without their having had any warning? The former seems reasonable. The latter seems like the kind of “gotcha” play that the anti-alignment faction considers intrinsic to any use of alignment, and the pro-alignment faction attributes to inappropriate use of alignment by the GM.

Oh, and the fact the players choose to respond by foregoing actual role playing of their characters in favour of “oh yeah? Well see how you like THIS, then” indicates, to me, a player maturity issue more than a rules system flaw.or.

They definitely weren't very mature - early '20s Australians with an 'ocker' mentality. Why didn't I warn them? Because I didn't want to cramp their play. They were having a good time, I was enjoying GMIng for their basically 'Emirikol the Chaotic' Monks. I only told them they were Evil in response to something they said that indicated they thought they were still LN despite (eg) releasing Spectres into a
city where they felt they'd been overcharged on spellcasting services. They continued to have a good time afterwards, just they were more consistently evil than before.

Hm, talking about this makes me want to run an Evil campaign again... I think it takes the right sort of players to make it fun, though.
 

So why exactly do you find it weird?
What I find weird is that, if Mearls and Baker write a skill challenge in which a consequence is a change in recovery time, that is (presumably) permissible within the rules; and if WotC publishes disease and curse rules which have, as one component, that recovery time for healing surges or powers is delayed, that is (presumably) permissible within the rules; but that if I implement such a consequence then I'm disregarding the action resolution mechanics!

What mechanics am I disregarding? Skill challenges, and choices within them, have consequences, including mechanical consequences. One well-known species of mechanical consequence in 4e is delaying or otherwise toying with the recovery time for resources and abilities. I have implemented such a consequence. That's exactly how 4e is intended to play. It's not disregarding the mechanics: it's applying them.

So did your skill challenge have as one of it's "rewards" (and remember you wrote it out earlier) that the DM could activate a player's familiar (without his consent), strip him of it (through said activation, DM fiat of the artifact rules and without the players consent) and change the recharge rate of said resource as a "reward" or "goal" of a "successful" skill challenge???

<snip>

Wait so the player activated his familiar? Or did you take control of his resource, activate it so it could take damage and then arbitrarily take it away because he chose not to funnel souls to Vecna... If so, wow... you not only arbitrarily stripped him of the resource, you also took over control of the resource in order to strip it away without his consent...
First, how would you possibly know what my player did or did not consent to? Every post you are making about makes me think that you have no idea about the dynamic of my game.

Second, it's well established in the game that the familiar in question has something of a life of its own. It is a watcher for Levistus. It also recently turned itself invisible and filched a ring for its master (ie the invoker PC). That's part of what the player is looking for in his familiar, and is part of the context within which he implanted the Eye of Vecna into it.

Third, I don't think you have a very good handle on how to run a skill challenge. Suppose the challenge had unfolded like this, instead: I invite the player to make a Perception check, and when he does I tell him that he notices a fire has started, and some MacGuffin is sitting in the middle of the fire. He then makes an Athletics check to have his PC rush in and grab the MacGuffin from the fire before it is burned to a crisp. If I said that the PC suffers level-appropriate fire damage, would you call that "GM fiat" not grounded in the action resolution rules?

Or here is another example, this one not hypothetical but from actual play, when the PCs reforged the dwarven thrower Whelm into the mordenkraad Overwhelm:

I adjudicated it as a complexity 1 (4 before 3) skill challenge. The fighter-cleric had succeeded at Dungeoneering (the closest in 4e to an engineering skill) and Diplomacy (to keep his dwarven artificers at the forge as the temperature and magical energies rise to unprecedented heights). The wizard had succeeded at Arcana (to keep the magical forces in check). But the fighter-cleric failed his Religion check - he was praying to Moradin to help with the process, but it wasn't enough. So he shoved his hands into the forge and held down the hammer with brute strength! (Successful Endurance against a Hard DC.) His hands were burned and scarred, but the dwarven smiths were finally able to grab the hammer head with their tongs, and then beat and pull it into its new shape.

The wizard then healed the dwarf PC with a Remove Affliction (using Fundamental Ice as the material component), and over the course of a few weeks the burns healed. (Had the Endurance check failed, things would have played out much the same, but I'd decided that the character would feel the pang of the burns again whenever he picked up Overwhelm.)

In running this particular challenge, I was the one who called for the Dungeoneering and Diplomacy checks. It was the players who initiated the other checks. In particular, the player of the dwarf PC realised that while his character is not an artificer, he is the toughtest dwarf around. This is what led him to say "I want to stick my hands into the forge and grab Whelm. Can I make an Endurance check for that?" An unexpected manoeuvre!

Are you really saying that it is not permissible, within the rules, to adjudicate that a character who shoves his hands into the forge in order to succeed in a reforging operation needs healing?

Or yet another example from actual play: the PCs negotiated with some duergar slave traders, and with a successful resolution of the skill challenge reached an agreement to redeem the slaves for an agreed sum at an agreed future date. When the PCs then turned up at the appointed date and time, and paid over the money, the slaves were released. Had they not paid the money, the duergar would not have released the slaves for free.

Are you really saying that it is not a permissible consequence of a successful skill challenge that a PC owe an NPC money?

I could multply the examples: a player fails a Diplomacy check, and as a result the key NPC in a fit of anger throws the widget over the cliff to fall into the water below; it is not poised on one final roll required which if it fails will make 3 fails, if it succeeds will make the required number of successes; the player of the thief declares that his/her PC jumps over the cliff after the widget, to catch it before it falls!

It seems to me that the success of the Acrobatics check tells us whether or not the PC caught the widget in mid-air, but s/he is taking damage from the fall either way!

As the rulebooks, say, skill challenges have consequences, both story consequences and concomitant mechanical consequences.
 

No see Pemerton, you're missing the point. When criticizing, you must absolutely adhere to the absolute letter of the rules. But when something you like is criticized, any problems are automatically the fault of the critic.
 

What I find weird is that, if Mearls and Baker write a skill challenge in which a consequence is a change in recovery time, that is (presumably) permissible within the rules; and if WotC publishes disease and curse rules which have, as one component, that recovery time for healing surges or powers is delayed, that is (presumably) permissible within the rules; but that if I implement such a consequence then I'm disregarding the action resolution mechanics!

Have they published a skill challenge where a DM is told to disregard the fact that something like...oh...say a familiar in passive mode... is immune to all damage and then damage/destroy it any way?

What mechanics am I disregarding? Skill challenges, and choices within them, have consequences, including mechanical consequences. One well-known species of mechanical consequence in 4e is delaying or otherwise toying with the recovery time for resources and abilities. I have implemented such a consequence. That's exactly how 4e is intended to play. It's not disregarding the mechanics: it's applying them.

Damaging something under a players control that shouldn't be damaged isn't toying with recovery time, it's disregarding mechanics and player authority over their build resources.

First, how would you possibly know what my player did or did not consent to? Every post you are making about makes me think that you have no idea about the dynamic of my game.

Did he consent to it... or are you sidestepping...once again. Honestly I'm not really concerned with the dynamic of your specific game, it doesn't impact me and we're not trying to convince each other of anything... so what does this have to do with the point?

Second, it's well established in the game that the familiar in question has something of a life of its own. It is a watcher for Levistus. It also recently turned itself invisible and filched a ring for its master (ie the invoker PC). That's part of what the player is looking for in his familiar, and is part of the context within which he implanted the Eye of Vecna into it.

Wait so you went from giving it "something of a life of it's own to making a decision for the familiar (a player resource) to put itself at risk, opposing it's master, that caused it to be destroyed (ironically enough by you again). Is there a term for railroading a character build resource??

Third, I don't think you have a very good handle on how to run a skill challenge. Suppose the challenge had unfolded like this, instead: I invite the player to make a Perception check, and when he does I tell him that he notices a fire has started, and some MacGuffin is sitting in the middle of the fire. He then makes an Athletics check to have his PC rush in and grab the MacGuffin from the fire before it is burned to a crisp. If I said that the PC suffers level-appropriate fire damage, would you call that "GM fiat" not grounded in the action resolution rules?

Yes, and I think you are sidestepping the questions and giving non-answers...

If the GM made the decision that the player would go for the MacGuffin (DM decides imp will funnel souls to Vecna) then decided the character also decided to take off his gloves of fire immunity (DM deciding the player's familiar went active) and then decides the PC will suffer level-appropriate fire damage (familiar now vulnerable to damage crumbles to dust from the 1 point of damage from the Eye of Vecna)... YES, that was GM fiat... and again borderline railroading of a character build resource.


Are you really saying that it is not permissible, within the rules, to adjudicate that a character who shoves his hands into the forge in order to succeed in a reforging operation needs healing?

The player didn't do anything... you controlled his build resource throughout the encounter.

Or yet another example from actual play: the PCs negotiated with some duergar slave traders, and with a successful resolution of the skill challenge reached an agreement to redeem the slaves for an agreed sum at an agreed future date. When the PCs then turned up at the appointed date and time, and paid over the money, the slaves were released. Had they not paid the money, the duergar would not have released the slaves for free.

Are you really saying that it is not a permissible consequence of a successful skill challenge that a PC owe an NPC money?

How is this in any way similar to what you did with the familiar of the PC? Focus man, it's not about whether a PC can owe an NPC money... what point are you even trying to make, because you don't seem to be addressing the one I made.

I could multply the examples:

You could but they aren't proving anything so unless you have something similar to the one you actually posted in the beginning of all this... please don't.


As the rulebooks, say, skill challenges have consequences, both story consequences and concomitant mechanical consequences.

No one is arguing against this... but you controlling a player build resource and causing it to be destroyed and determining it's actions and when or if he'll get it back is a far cry from the player suffering consequences from his own decisions.
 

No see Pemerton, you're missing the point. When criticizing, you must absolutely adhere to the absolute letter of the rules. But when something you like is criticized, any problems are automatically the fault of the critic.

Deleted
 

Tracking and implementation are different.

What's the point of tracking of you aren't going to implement?

And again Sadras, there is absolutely no problem with differences in opinion regarding interpretations. Two people looking at something might very well disagree whether it is truly beautiful.

But it's far more unlikely that one will say it's truly beautiful while the other says it has no redeeming qualities and is wholly ugly.

That's where the problem lies in alignment. That two people can have completely opposite interpretations and both be able to 100% justify those interpretations using the alignment definitions.
 

No see Pemerton, you're missing the point. When criticizing, you must absolutely adhere to the absolute letter of the rules. But when something you like is criticized, any problems are automatically the fault of the critic.
I wondered if anyone else had noticed that some of the people criticising my adjudication of the skill challenge in my game are the same ones who have argued that it is basically just following the RAW to have all the summoned glabrezu already tapped-out of wishes!
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top