D&D 5E Do Classes Have Concrete Meaning In Your Game?

Are Classes Concrete Things In Your Game?


I am glad that you mention real life as an example of "non leveled" Kings because history is littered with dead Kings who tried to use their political skill against another Kings Guns and Cannons.

Besides with XP being tied directly to Gold Pieces there is no reason why you would have a low level King unless they lived in the Wop Wops being paid with Pigs and Wheat.
XP isn't granted for tax collecting. Not in 1e, unless you happen to be collecting it from orc tribes perhaps. In 2e you might get some sort of 'story reward' for collecting taxes, if that's a part of the story, but it isn't proportional to GP.

That is of course the real weakness of using non-leveled NPCs - how are you going to stop PCs from doing what ever they want? Which leads pretty directly to having non-leveled NPCs with the same stats as leveled NPCs or using the "modern" system of just stating them out as monsters.

Its not a 'weakness' of using non-leveled NPCs, its a consequence of making a world so shallow in its engagement that the players feel no need to uphold (or overthrow for that matter) its social order, have any loyalty to their king or nation, etc. No amount of giving NPCs levels or some equivalent really 'fixes' that issue. Its fine if your game is simply about PCs running around amassing treasure, and pretty much nothing else. I'd note that 5e's attempt to combat this whole issue seems to be Bounded Accuracy. The king's 40 guards can beat the crap out of your 10th level fighter, even though they're only level 2 themselves because that's now the math works in 5e. So even if you played in a way that you felt required you to put class levels on every NPC, that A) doesn't mean class levels are an in-game thing, and B) isn't needed in 5e.
 

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The king's 40 guards can beat the crap out of your 10th level fighter, even though they're only level 2 themselves because that's now the math works in 5e. So even if you played in a way that you felt required you to put class levels on every NPC, that A) doesn't mean class levels are an in-game thing, and B) isn't needed in 5e.

FYI: The NPC guard in the MM is CR 1/8 (2 HD). 40 of them is 1,000 XP. For a single 10th level fighter, its a Deadly encounter but if the 10th level Fighter had three 10th level friends (say, a cleric, rogue, and wizard) the encounter becomes Easy.

So while the 10th level fighter might be taken down by 40 guards, a standard adventuring party is going to cut through them like kobolds. Bounded accuracy only goes so far...
 

Alright, consider this: Is "physics" a discrete kind of knowledge? Is "chemistry"? "Biology"?

These categories of knowledge are arbitrary. We create them because the sum total of all currently-available knowledge is far too vast for a single person to acquire. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asserting that calling particular scientists "physicists," "chemists," or "biologists" is in some sense ridiculous because the real world recognizes no such distinctions. Hell, the world doesn't recognize a distinction between "scientist" and, say, "physician" or "philosopher"--and, at one time in human history, "philosopher" was the appropriate term for one who practiced any amount of any of those three things. (Remember, Isaac Newton did not consider himself a "scientist" or "mathematician," he considered himself a "natural philosopher"--his great work on what we today call physical phenomena is the Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, the "Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy.")

Yet, despite the arbitrariness, despite the indisputable fact that these categories are only employed because they are useful for human organization and not because they reflect any fundamental differences in the nature of reality, we still consider these terms truly meaningful things--things that can be known about a person. "He's a physicist," "she's a mathematician," "they're biologists looking at the molecular signals between cells." All of these sentences are clearly meaningful, about real-world people, despite the fact that "mathematics" and "biology" are only separate categories because we have chosen them to be so.

Similarly, one can quite easily say that classes in any given instantiation of D&D--whatever its (pseudo)historical or fictional underpinnings--are equivalent things. In order to be a licensed physician, one must meet certain qualifications, possess certain training, etc.; identically, in some possible D&D universes, being a licensed "esoteric philosopher" (my own coinage, meant to parallel "natural philosopher") may require specific qualifications and possessing a certain kind of training. Such people, in D&D parlance, would be called wizards.

Does this mean that these people have a codified understanding of what "level" is? Not necessarily. I would certainly expect them to have a codified understanding of the difference between 1st-level and 9th-level spells, seeing as it is pretty easy to test (really, they should know a distinction between spells of every level, I'm just using the extremes for emphasis; for example, in the Tales of Wyre setting, spell-levels are called "valences," by analogy to the discrete energy levels found in the real-world quantum-mechanical description of electron orbits). Further, it doesn't necessarily mean that people "know their own hit point total," though I'd expect people to have a rough intuitive sense of their proportion of HP (e.g. being at half HP, or half surges in 4e, should "feel different" from being at full or near-zero--based on the real sense of nociception).

You seem to be arguing straw men here: saying that, if class exists and is a known thing, then it must be so in every possible world, and that people have to also know statistic X, and Y, and Z, and these things are absurd, therefore knowing that class exists is also absurd. But these "it must apply everywhere" and slippery-slope-like arguments just doesn't follow. Class need not be real in all worlds to be real in some. And itt's entirely possible, in plenty of worlds, to know or be able to learn that a character is a Wizard (perhaps, as stated, "an esoteric philosopher"), a Druid (perhaps "an acolyte of The Green"), or really any other class, if the person creating that universe thinks that's worth doing. It need not involve any deeper analysis of a character's game statistics.

To give a personal example: my Dungeon World game. "Wizard" is a status that not only can be known, but is known, for all surface-dwelling races (mostly humans and elves): someone who was educated in the Conclave, the loose and fractious coalition of powerful, quasi-school-aligned magical Towers. Only one exception has been seen, and his exceptional-ness was commented on multiple times (a Kobold "priest of Tiamat"* who was mechanically a Wizard--Tiamat being a fickle goddess who wants her followers to seek power, not succor). All the Thieves (or, really, thief-assassins) we've seen have, in the end, proven to come from the same source, trained by a shadowy league of manipulators to be their perfect infiltrators; while the people who know that it's a Thing are few and far between, some actually do. Very technically, my Paladin also qualifies, but only because he's genuinely unique: there is no one else, and may never have been anyone else, that could do the things he does. In theory, the Cleric class has worked similarly--an NPC (a well-meaning but corrupt sort-of-pope-y-bishop of my character's faith) was clearly understood to have his own 'connection to the divine,' working legit miracles.

I don't know that this necessarily translates into all classes being discrete Things Which Exist And People Recognize It, but it's a wholly natural, explained-within-the-world definition of these classes. Being a Wizard means something, and barring the Kobold exception, connects you to a particular power structure, both magical and political. Being a Thief connects you to something, a particular shadowy group, at least in origin.

*This proved to be a very interesting partnership, given that my character is a Paladin...of Bahamut, and Lawful Good (emphasis on the Good) to boot. This isn't the normal D&D universe, but the relationship between the two draconic deities is much the same as it is in FR, or the 4e "points of light" setting. Our two characters would occasionally have theological discussions--in Draconic, naturally, since they're both fluent in it while the Kobold's "common tongue" is a bit stilted. My Paladin had to face a challenge to part of his faith--that Tiamat was purely evil, yet a clear servant of hers was at worst Chaotic Neutral. And the Kobold had to deal with Mr. Goody-Two-Shoes, or "Law-Doer" as he called my character when out of earshot, interfering. It was a wonderful storyline, eventually ending in said Kobold coming around to agreeing with my Paladin on many subjects and making amends for some of his dangerous/selfish deeds in the past--culminating in a touching scene between the two, my character expressing his deep and sincere respect for his diminutive, scaly friend.

I think MY question is not about how the characters in the world perceive class. Its about the actual rules of the universe itself. Is class literally a thing, an attribute that adheres to all (or most or some) individuals and literally regulates their ability to function, such that in a 1e-based world there are NO such things as humans who can cast magic user spells that don't have levels in the magic user class and thus every single one of them cannot pick up a sword without spontaneously combusting (or whatever the HECK it is that happens to you in 1e when you break one of its "though shalt not do X" type rules). Now, my answer to this is that 1e's rules NEVER ENVISAGED THIS, there are many examples of 'class-like characters' that can do things like cast spells but don't seem to be regulated by and belong to specific classes. MANY NPCs are given class levels, but I question whether that was again intended to imply that they were exactly regulated by some sort of "laws of physics" or whether it is just damned convenient to be able to use the shorthand notation of "he's a wizard". And if the DM wants to give his NPC wizard a magical sword and fight with it, etc then he's just embellishing and its not some sort of cataclysmic breakdown of universal order that he is obligated to explain somehow.

Obviously in a game as rigidly classist as 1e and with very few defined options available to the players to blur those lines it can come to pass that a player may ask "Well, if the NPC 'magic users' can swing swords, why can't I?" My answer to that is "1e is a very limited system with some deep issues." You can of course work around it, or (nowadays) use a more advanced system like 3e, 4e, or 5e. In 1980 you were just stuck, or you got tired of D&D and got out Runequest or some other non-class-based system that COULD answer those questions. MANY MANY people felt that urge. Others of us simply had players that weren't so worried about it and just got on with the game.
 

It dawned on me that this conversation would go down exactly the same way if it had been changed to "Do alignments have concrete meaning in your game?"

For some, the notion of alignment being rigid and knowable is ludicrous: people don't conform to one inflexible view of the world and its nearly impossible to KNOW what that view would be; even the people themselves wouldn't think in terms of Lawful Good or Chaotic Neutral. Therefore Alignment must be a metagame construction to quickly assign a "starting personality" to a PC in terms easily understood: "Lawful Good" gives us a general view of the PC's attitude like "Paladin" does his abilities.

BUT WAIT

Alignment IS a tangible thing in the D&D rules. You can detect it magically using spells and abilities. Magic Items attune to only certain alignments. The outer planes are manifestations of these alignments. In days of yore, some alignments powered certain classes (LG Paladins, TN Druids) and alignments even had unique languages. Lawful Good wasn't an abstract moral concept, you could speak it or visit it! A paladin or wizard could tell yours with magic. It was a tangible force that made magic stronger or weaker for you, or even opened up certain abilities. Even behaving against your alignment could penalize you in XP loss or (if your class adhered to a certain alignment) loss of powers or class.




However, it never stopped endless debates as to what alignment WAS. And as the editions rolled on, the concept became more and more muted. Certainly, the effect of alignment in 5e is much lower than that of 3e or even 1e.

From practically the creation of the game there were differences of opinion on whant Alignment actually meant, which lead to lots of contradictory rulings and game elements in the game. Any particular theory can gather evidence by a selective reading of the various editions of D&D, downplaying or ignoring anything contradictory.

Detectable alignment threatens mystery plots. Defenses against such detection weakens the appeal of alignment to players, and moves it closer to a stick to punish the players with rather than a carrot.

And 4e, for all intents and purposes, rendered it so vague and unimportant that it practically was a nonentity to most characters (4e did the same to classes IMHO).

I disagree when it comes to 4e classes. 3e made classes weak by the lenient multiclassing rules, and encouraging min maxed prestige class builds. IMO this damaged the "D&D as team game" variant by making it hard to figure out the capabilities of any given PC without knowing the exact details of their build. I think of 3e classes as "loose", a toolbox with which to assemble the concept aimed at.

4e classes where much more restricted and multiclassing was more limited. Hybrid classes had big warning labels across them about uneven balance and utility. The class and variant of a 4e PC quickly gives a fairly accurate idea of his general capabilities (unless it's built against type and deceptively). I personally prefer restrictive classes over looser ones, YMMV.

4e does make it much easier to reskin classes, it's true, which can conflict with a more prescriptive view of classes.

However, I'm sure we could sit here and probably have the same argument, verbatim, on alignment as tangible or metagame as we are with classes.

I don't think there has ever been a general consensus on the tangibility of alignment.
 

You don't need to know anything about D&D classes to be able to identify with a group that's a pretty close analog to class. The fact that "anyone" (or a lot of people, at any rate) can describe themselves as a warrior is actually a pretty strong indication of the fact that class models something fairly concrete and recognizable in historical, mythical, or fantasy-type contexts. Your bolded text is immaterial, because not all aspects of class have to be evident in the game world for class to have concrete reality.

And incidentally, Odysseus, Menelaus, Agamemnon - they're all kings. So much for the idea that only "political hacks" can become kings, and that having a classed character as a king is a ridiculous intrusion of metagame concepts on a living world.

Nobody said it is impossible for heroes to be kings or that NO kings are heroes.

Class is moderately useful, it is VERY useful as a way to help PLAYERS choose what sort of character they play and what exactly benefits they are entitled to in the game based on that. That doesn't make class REAL in the game world. Nothing, even in 1e, indicates that a character can literally name off the classes or tell which one he belongs to, or (as an NPC) even state that he does belong to one.

Other things like 'what level do I have to be to cast spell X' aren't even necessarily germane either. As an NPC there aren't rules for when or if you can cast certain spells. Its perfectly possible that its within the realm of what happens in a world for a child to cast a 9th level spell, and without knowing any other magic. Presumably there's a narrative reason for that which elucidates some sort of principle that operates in the game world in question, but its not 'against the rules' for this to happen, the game isn't a set of rules for what CAN happen. Thus 'class' isn't a set of rules for how everyone advances or what they do, only for PCs.
 

Except that they get distinct sets of abilities that only other people that have the same class (and level) can get.

It would be like having a Basket Ball player class that gets "Slam Dunk" at 3rd level.

But again, this is YOUR supposition. I disagree that the game was ever conceived with this idea in mind, or that any edition supports the notion that any ability is restricted to a certain group of people. Nor that NPCs are bound to the rules of class restrictions that bind PLAYERS (not their characters, the PLAYERS).
 

FYI: The NPC guard in the MM is CR 1/8 (2 HD). 40 of them is 1,000 XP. For a single 10th level fighter, its a Deadly encounter but if the 10th level Fighter had three 10th level friends (say, a cleric, rogue, and wizard) the encounter becomes Easy.

So while the 10th level fighter might be taken down by 40 guards, a standard adventuring party is going to cut through them like kobolds. Bounded accuracy only goes so far...

Sure, but in other editions a level 10 fighter is nigh invincible to level 1 opponents. He really has NOTHING to fear from 'muggles' at all. In 5e the common folk WILL eventually get you, even if you're high level there will be that one day when 20 farmers corner you in a corn field when your friends happen to be off robbing the next village over, and then you're put paid to. There's no need to assume some sort of 'police force' of higher level figures that keeps order. Its a bit more like reality in that respect.
 

But again, this is YOUR supposition. I disagree that the game was ever conceived with this idea in mind, or that any edition supports the notion that any ability is restricted to a certain group of people. Nor that NPCs are bound to the rules of class restrictions that bind PLAYERS (not their characters, the PLAYERS).

Would it be fair to create a setting where a group of PCs were the ONLY Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard in the whole world? Why or why not?
 

XP isn't granted for tax collecting. Not in 1e, unless you happen to be collecting it from orc tribes perhaps. In 2e you might get some sort of 'story reward' for collecting taxes, if that's a part of the story, but it isn't proportional to GP.

And I would also rule it that way if I was working from your original premise.

Its not a 'weakness' of using non-leveled NPCs, its a consequence of making a world so shallow in its engagement that the players feel no need to uphold (or overthrow for that matter) its social order, have any loyalty to their king or nation, etc. No amount of giving NPCs levels or some equivalent really 'fixes' that issue. Its fine if your game is simply about PCs running around amassing treasure, and pretty much nothing else.

And what kind of "shallow world" does Conan exist in? Because obviously he does not have any loyalty to a King or nation etc and has no problem murder hoboing his way through the land crushing zero-leveled kings under his jeweled sandals.

I'd note that 5e's attempt to combat this whole issue seems to be Bounded Accuracy. The king's 40 guards can beat the crap out of your 10th level fighter, even though they're only level 2 themselves because that's now the math works in 5e. So even if you played in a way that you felt required you to put class levels on every NPC, that A) doesn't mean class levels are an in-game thing, and B) isn't needed in 5e.

Even in 5e I would put a 10th level Fighter up against the Kings 40 level 2 guards and it would be even worse for the Guards if the Fighter had the rest of his adventuring buddies along for the ride.
 

But again, this is YOUR supposition. I disagree that the game was ever conceived with this idea in mind, or that any edition supports the notion that any ability is restricted to a certain group of people. Nor that NPCs are bound to the rules of class restrictions that bind PLAYERS (not their characters, the PLAYERS).

And you could very well be correct that it was never intended to be that way.

Unfortunately I can only go by what was actually written rather then what Gary and Dave thought was the case.

Edit: Actually if I think about my first experience with DnD, it had nothing to do with what Gary or Dave thought, but rather what Frank Mentzer thought. And what he thought was that your character (a Fighter) teamed up with Aleena (a Cleric) to fight Bargel (a Wizard). After that it only made sense to think that everyone else was some kind of class (unless you were a race instead of class).
 
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