D&D 5E Do Classes Have Concrete Meaning In Your Game?

Are Classes Concrete Things In Your Game?


That's that squinting I was talking about...

...and Monks get those abilities in the first place because they point at the archetype that the monk is meant to allow you to role play, and that archetype isn't just "fist-fighty-person."

I'm not saying it doesn't work fine, but I am saying that I prefer it when the mechanics fully support the role I want to play, rather than just kinda support it (and thus that class has a pretty concrete meaning in my games, and that I think it's a GOOD idea that it does and want it to be even MORE concrete).
While I agree that 5e is, by far, the easiest system to date to make mechanics changes, and i certainly do that when it's called for, I'm still stuck with the need to even further set in that a class means exactly this and nothing else, fiction-wise. My primary axis of query on this is the fact that NPCs presented in the game material have no classes. They may have similar abilities to some classes, sometimes, but they are not members of any class. They are titled according to what the creators envisioned their roles were to be in the game when made, but I've no problem taking the Bandit King, for instance, and using it as a guard captain. But, yet, given this immediate flexibility in refluffing archetypes on one side of the screen (perhaps you do not do this, in which case I apologize for the assumption) the rule for players is to adhere to the fluff already attached to character classes -- no changes allowed unless you build a new class/archetype.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you're doing it wrong, just that you do it differently from me, and I'm trying to understand the thought processes involved in something different. I agree that, quite often, a reskin of a class to a match up with a different that designed archetype isn't always clean (monks and languages, frex), and that the better solution there is to mechanically alter the class. But I don't see the need to take that freedom and then use it as a reason that the published archetypes need to be locked in stone for game fiction purposes.
 

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But unless your character just happens to fit exactly into one of the choices in the PHB, it will always only kinda support it. Eventually, some sort of compromise will have to be made.

That's part of my case, though - when classes represent things in your world rather than simply mechanics, you don't compromise, you innovate! When classes just represent mechanics, it pushes the game more toward "classless" design, where you don't have to take abilities that aren't thematically appropriate because you swap 'em out.

Yes, but there comes a point where it's quicker and easier to modify the Monk than the Fighter to get where you want to go.

Sure, but it depends on the decision points and more importantly for me, it depends on the game fiction. If there's nothing about your character that fits the fluff description of the Monk class, with its mysticism and acesticism and ki and philosophy, IMC, I don't want you taking the monk class. I want you taking the class that matches your fiction, and we'll give it the ability to punch and not wear armor. "Punch and not wear armor" isn't a narrative or a destiny or a role in the world, it's just a thing you do. I want your class to evoke the role you fill in this fantasy story, not simply describe a thing you can do.

That's why I come down on the side of "classes should generally mean something." Lets modify what something can do rather than modify what it means.

Ovinomancer said:
My primary axis of query on this is the fact that NPCs presented in the game material have no classes. They may have similar abilities to some classes, sometimes, but they are not members of any class.

That's fair, but I see this more as a symptom of naming and convenience than of prohibition. The Acolyte isn't built like a PC, but it's pretty evidently a 1st-level cleric; the Druid doesn't have all the druid abilities listed on its statblock, but it's even *called* a Druid. Various warriors have Action Surge. And so on.

One of the things I think 5e could really use is a good "PC Class -> NPC" conversion materials. Maybe a particular subclass that is easy to run (DMG suggests champions, light clerics, thieves, and evokers), or NPC "classes" that get PC-class-ability-mimicing actions, or something.

NPC's follow different rules from PC's, though, so it's not surprising they're built differently. Even though I might struggle to say what the combat stats of the high pope of Pelor is or whatever, it's certainly not impossible to derive what those are by statting out the high pope of Pelor and slapping a CR on 'im.
 
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Meh. Race can class both try to model genre characters. Race models ancestry, place in the world, physical appearance, and so forth. A D&D 'elf' isn't exactly like a Tolkien elf or an ElfQuest elf or an Aldriyami or a lot of other things that are on some level 'elves,' but it's probably the closest race for a lot of 'em. A human is a single race in D&D, IRL there are some people who'll disagree with being told their the 'the same' as another human with very different ancestry.

Background is a bit more abstract. A D&D PC has one background. The character may be the 7th son of a minor noble who served in the military before turning to a life of crime, but the player's going to have to pick Noble, Soldier, or Criminal for his background, and just hint around at the other aspects.

Class as a model for the abilities of fictional characters is even looser. Vanishingly few wizards in genre cast spells the way D&D wizards do. Not very many fighters swing their sword 1/minute, no matter how abstractly you take that old-school mechanic. Hit points don't exactly simulate anything too closely.

If you're using 3e-style MCing, class becomes even more a mechanical building-block you use to create a character a class-level at a time with little direct connection to the game-world making much sense.

PrCs, in stark contrast to base classes & sub-classes, tie in directly to the world with that in-character prerequisite, so could very well provide a more concrete connection.

Meh. Your whole race > background > class hierarchy of greater to lesser concreteness is still based on your understanding of "biological" categories as more "real" than "social" categories is still derived from outside the game context (thus, they're metagame). And it doesn't matter whether humans in game are a race, as opposed to what we usually think of as race in RL (which a lot of scientists don't accept anyway) - the point still stands.

Example:

The campaign setting centers on humanoid war-bands, which include the PCs. Te war bands are made up of various creatures, who may or may not be descended from distinct humanoid races. Everyone sleeps with everyone else, so everyone is really mixed genetically, and phenotypically, different appearance is not terribly important. What's important is the band's origin in the badlands, beyond the sphere of urban life (background), and your specific contribution to the well-being and success of the warband (class, or something very close to it). Race is seen simply as a construct which is used by the urban dwellers to justify murdering your people on the basis of some proclaimed essential difference Nothing more.

Main point being: what's concrete and what's abstract is determined by the setting, not abstract categorization.
 

Main point being: what's concrete and what's abstract is determined by the setting, not abstract categorization.

I can agree with that. My current setting has race more concrete due to the history of the setting, but your example above is pretty cool and I'd enjoy that setting as well. Classes, though, are something that I never write into my settings. I may write in organizations that appeal heavily to one archetype, yes, but they're not defined by being that archetype, or the archetype is broad enough that many things fit under it.
 

Two answers. First: because you can identify an unconscious, naked member of a particular race (that is, without any ability to refer to behavior or equipment it is entirely possible to identify an individual's race/species, but almost impossible to identify their class).

Second: Some people totally DO do that. Especially in 4e, lots of people talked of doing it. An example that comes to mind: a "Dwarf Noble" character, who was actually an Earthsoul Genasi. Her different stats and magical abilities were explained as a result of her noble heritage and (IIRC shamanic?) education. But she totally looked, talked, and acted like a (high-status) dwarf would.

The degree to which you can identify a naked, unconscious member as belonging to a race depends on a lot of social factors. One, the degree of mixing. Two, relatedly, the degree to which your culture places a premium on identifying distinct races as a "thing". That's why there used to be such a phenomenon as "passing". That's why, in the Jim Crow south, they had racial miscegenation laws, that stipulated that you were a member of the "black race" if you were 1/32 of African origin. They had to put a numerical value on it, precisely because they couldn't point to self-evident physical features.

The fact that some people "totally do that" doesn't mean it's universal, and universally important, in game or out.


Actually, at least in 4e (and I *think* 5e as well? Correct me if I'm wrong), half-elf and half-orc are true-breeding, a distinct type of being from both 'origin races.' 4e, of course, actually gave some heft to the distinction, since both half-elves and half-orcs have unique abilities that aren't found among humans, orcs, or elves. We have no real standard of comparison for 5e orc vs. half-orc, but half-elves aren't super different from their parent races (especially Variant Human + pre-subrace Elf).

I'm not sure what point you're making here, but if half-elves aren't super-different from elves, then there is no reason to consider half-elves as a distinct race (as the rulebooks, and the vast majority of players, do). Which means, of course, that "race" in the game is not as concrete as you think it is.

As for the IRL vs. in-game thing: the terms really aren't used the same way. They may have a common origin, but they're pretty heavily divergent at this point. When "Fighter" can apply just as much to a Noble as a Street Urchin, it cannot possibly be the same kind of "class" as referred to in Marx's "class struggles."

It's not the same thing, but the point is, class in game is still what in sociology is called achieved status, and race is still what in sociology is called ascribed status. So the fundamental distinction is based on metagame considerations. That's the point - not that what we call class and race in the game are identical to what we understand by these terms in RL.


QUOTE=EzekielRaiden;6762554]"Race" is much closer, I'll grant you that, but the assumption that cultural groups are defined along lines of genetic incompatibility (or un-hybridized states, for human/elf etc.) is not necessarily unwarranted. It requires a level of cultural adaptation to be able to process and accept, for instance, dynastic marriages between biologically incompatible parents (e.g. a dragonborn and a human, a dwarf and an elf, etc.) If the associated species also have dramatically different lifespans and physiological needs, the likelihood of tension and/or separation between the two is high. There's also the very simple "looks like us GOOD, not look like us BAD" tribalism, which has defined human social interactions practically from the dawn of time (just check out tensions between North African and Sub-Saharan African peoples, or the tensions between the various ethnic groups of East Asia,* or the hatred between the Arab and Kurdish populations of Iraq, or the current racial divisions which contribute to the horrible situation in France); differences which are both more dramatic and more fundamental than anything appearing among anatomically-modern humans could easily foster even deeper tribalist feelings. I mean, if Europeans were willing to burn people at the stake for having warts in the wrong places or something, can we really say that pseudo-medieval humanoids would never act that way toward beings that are demonstrably different from them biologically?

*One of my high school teachers was a wonderful lady of Korean descent, though she was born and raised here in the States. Her husband, also a native-born American citizen, was of Chinese descent. Her (maternal, IIRC) grandmother, a native-born Korean, never quite got over the fact that her granddaughter had married a Chinese man, and had a tendency to express...uncomfortable opinions in private conversation. These sorts of lingering ethno-cultural attitudes are hardly uncommon even today. In a medieval kind of society, where average education levels are far lower and overall violence higher, it seems very plausible that such straightforward, obvious distinctions would be ready-to-hand justification for exclusion...if not worse.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but the reason for recognizing these differences as important is a cultural reason. I can come up with all kinds of counterexamples. In Ireland, Protestants and Catholics look more or less the same, but there are long-standing tensions between them that are much more important than tensions between people there on the basis of perceived physical markers. Ditto Jews and Arabs in Palestine. Ditto Serbs and Croats in the Balkans. In Russia, in the 18th and 19th century, there was a system of serfdom that in key ways resembled North American slavery, except the racial dimension. Landlords and serfs recognized one another as "Russian" - race as a category was not applied at all - but the landlords still saw the serfs as little better than beasts.
 

So what I learned is:

"I have a cool idea for a character. He's a tough old human who was a former thug for a local guild. He fights with a pair of shortswords, wears beaten leather armor, but otherwise looks like a normal laborer in any town and NOT an adventurer. He has a slight limp, but hearty against poisons. Here are his stats:

Garruk
Hill dwarf (refluffed human) fighter (refluffed enforcer), N, criminal
S 15, D 12, C 16, I 10, W 12, CH 8
AC 17 (chain, refluffed as leather armor, defense style)
HP 14, Spd 25
Skills: Athletics, Stealth, Perception, Deception, Thieves tools
Atk: greatsword (refluffed as two shortswords) +4, 2d6+2

Yes, this. That's precisely the point I'm making. If we can refluff class so easily, there is no earthly reason why we can't refluff race, skills, weapons, or anything else. They're all metagame if not clearly rooted in the setting.

But it strikes me as strange that there is so much emphasis on refluffing class specifically, when class is what we care about so much. Many more debates on this forum are about class than other features. When SCAG comes out, more people buy it for the classes than for any other reason. So if class is so important, why do we use so much energy to create another filter, called character concept, or whatever, as opposed to figuring out ways to more concretely define classes within the settings we run?
 

I can agree with that. My current setting has race more concrete due to the history of the setting, but your example above is pretty cool and I'd enjoy that setting as well. Classes, though, are something that I never write into my settings. I may write in organizations that appeal heavily to one archetype, yes, but they're not defined by being that archetype, or the archetype is broad enough that many things fit under it.

I have no beef with this, or anyone who says that the degree to which class is concrete depends on the setting. My only issue is with those who say that class is an abstract, metagame category to a greater extent than race or background, by definition.
 

Some of the failed classes of 4e are failed archetypes - there is little demand for a "ranger whose arrows turn into bees" or "a cleric, but with runes," perhaps.
A world that doesn't need "a ranger who can turn arrows into bees" is not a world I want to live in.
 

A lot of interesting points. All I can say is that after all this discussion, the answer is clearly the second option. Neither extreme allows for so many of the examples and anecdotes provided, whether they're straight out of the book, or require some level of homebrewing.
 

Yes, this. That's precisely the point I'm making. If we can refluff class so easily, there is no earthly reason why we can't refluff race, skills, weapons, or anything else. They're all metagame if not clearly rooted in the setting.

But it strikes me as strange that there is so much emphasis on refluffing class specifically, when class is what we care about so much. Many more debates on this forum are about class than other features. When SCAG comes out, more people buy it for the classes than for any other reason. So if class is so important, why do we use so much energy to create another filter, called character concept, or whatever, as opposed to figuring out ways to more concretely define classes within the settings we run?

I'll give you my answer: because having classes be rigidly defined in the setting takes work. I have to write that into my fiction. I can't just go with warrior being a catch all for martially focused characters and NPCs, I now have to have a game fiction for why a fighter is concretely different from a no-spell archetype ranger. Yes, they have slightly different mechanics, but they both effectively do the same things -- kill stuff with weapons. Further, I have to have a reason to separate the different archetypes under each of the classes. The material provided doesn't do this, either in the PHB or in the various (light) settings provided. So either I have a case where people know things about other people based on a class name without good reasons (default), which breaks narratives for me, or I have to do the work to give in-game reasons why people might know why a Fighter is different from a Ranger.

Now, that's my hangup, certainly. I have the need to present an internally consistent narrative, to a first approximation at least. I don't want to create groups and fiction and schools for all of the various classes, and then do it again if I introduce a customized class due to a player request. I'd much rather keep such things below the level of 'reality' in-game and have people identify, not by class, but by feats and possibly membership in known organization (like being a Guild Mage, which has a specific meaning with most members being abjuration wizards, but there's room for other casters in their ranks).
 

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